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Post by Alphabolt on May 15, 2007 14:02:16 GMT 8
PROS AND CONS pls?
Why?: cost savings for those with DJ/Slalom frames already
DJ Frame vs XC Frame : shorter chainstay, shorter toptube, heavier and low seat clearance
Weight - not by much I think...and some SS are made from chromoly so its not an issue I guess
head angle s about the same
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Post by 32by18 on May 15, 2007 18:34:02 GMT 8
If the DJ frame is made from aluminum, it may ride a bit harsh, and even if they're made of steel, they're usually overbuilt to take the abuse of jumps... Other considerations, aside from HT angle, is TT length, ST angle, wheelbase...since most people would stand up for climbs on an SS, a longer TT, and perhaps wheelbase, may help with stability. You planning to run the DJ frame rigid, or with a shock (more permutations!) That's not to say you can't use a DJ frame for SS XC  |
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Post by Alphabolt on May 15, 2007 20:31:29 GMT 8
hiya obiwonAgu, what s the typical weight of an SS frame ? those alum DJ frames are pretty light I think the seatube angle and toptube angle are primary considerations as you stated would you also happen to know the comparisons of SS vs DJ frames in terms of length of chainstay and seatstay? I rode a DJ SS bike and it felt like a cruiser on the road..relaxed and a solid platform DJ SS Bikesetup is a very cool idea IMHO : It s multi purpose. We used one during the Bike Clinic and it did everything again, hydrib DJ SS Bikesetup is cool idea IMHO ...sorry SS purists |
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Post by 32by18 on May 15, 2007 21:33:36 GMT 8
Hi Arnel! No need to apologize to the purists around here! I'd like to think we are all mature, open-minded individuals here (at least when it comes to bikes hehe) A typical ss frame can run from 3.2 lbs to 4 lbs, depending on material, size... Let's compare the geometries of the KHS Solo One (size S), and their DJ300 (size S) frames, ca 2006. measurements in mm, when applicable: seat tube, center to top Solo One: 397 DJ300: 345 top tube, center to center Solo One: 535 DJ300: 537.3 chain stay Solo One: 413.1 DJ300: 420 wheelbase Solo One: 1030.7 DJ300: 1051.25 head angle Solo One: 71 deg DJ300: 67.2 deg seat angle Solo One: 74 DJ300: 71.3 The biggest disparity would be the head angles. Due to different riding styles and intended uses, the DJ bike is designed around a longer-travel fork. A longer wheelbase and chainstay also gives the DJ bike more stability, combined with a slacker seat angle, puts the rider's weight bias rearward... I'd love to try a DJ bike (SS or otherwise), just to feel the difference. but based on the numbers... I'd expect a DJ bike to be a bit less efficient when getting from point A to point B, especially during climbs. Again that's not to say that a DJ bike can't do SS, or XC, or DH for that matter. Then again, back in the day, GT Zaskars (XC racing frames) were pressed into service as DH, 4X, DS and even Trials duty by team GT members! All these numbers are making me dizzy! Time to ride! |
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Post by Alphabolt on May 15, 2007 22:17:33 GMT 8
Let's compare the geometries of the KHS Solo One (size S), and their DJ300 (size S) frames, ca 2006. measurements in mm, when applicable: seat tube, center to top Solo One: 397 DJ300: 345 top tube, center to center Solo One: 535 DJ300: 537.3 chain stay Solo One: 413.1 DJ300: 420 wheelbase Solo One: 1030.7 DJ300: 1051.25 head angle Solo One: 71 deg DJ300: 67.2 deg seat angle Solo One: 74 DJ300: 71.3 All these numbers are making me dizzy! Time to ride! Wow, Agu ! what a revelation ! ... I always thought that DJ frames had radical geometries...but the numbers you listed are a shocker  ...the SS and the DJ frames are basically (+ / - a few mms) the same except for the headtube angles That s it Im building a DJ SS bike  ;D I already have a light DJ frame. I ll just use my extra parts and buy the needed drivetrain parts ;D |
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Post by 32by18 on May 15, 2007 22:35:21 GMT 8
well, this is comparing DJ and SS frames from the same manufacturer, it may not hold true for ALL frames. Since you already have a frame, by all means, go for it! The build is just as exciting as the ride what fork you using? etc? Maybe you can document the build on a separate thread, with pics of course! just post any more Qs here, I'm sure the board regulars can share some input... |
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Post by Alphabolt on May 15, 2007 23:04:27 GMT 8
Hiya Agu, yep...I ll need major help, dude I ve got: 1. a Cove Freeride HT 2. a Noleen CrossLink fork (bought 2 yrs ago never installed. circa 1998) ...its a telelever design so pls dont flame me SS purists Jessiecruz' s bike setup with the German multi-link fork inspired me to use my strange fork 3. old school XTR 950 square taper cranks (old stock but never been used) 4. Tires. I ll use : either a spare Deore + DB wheeset OR an XT + 217 wheelset Maxxis TT Larsen Oriflame semislicks 2.1s OR Panaracer Fire Xc Pros 2.1s OR Kenda Nevegal front 2.1 + Roll X Race back 2.0 5. Race Face 100mm oldschoold stem5deg...heavy OR Ritchey 100mm 5 deg ..light OR Titec Fast Al 10deg 90mm stem 6. FSA Orbit II headset 7. Specialized lockon grips ...the cheap ones but hey it works Need: SS handle bar chain ...Kool chain ok right ? it seems too heavy though SS cog Tensioner Brakes issue: Im limited to a V brake upfront due to fork design but Im willing to take the flak of using a V in front and a mech disc at the back..OR I ll just use old XT Vees front and back I ve seen the threads but some get too confusing ..could you give it to me straight (the essence of SS I guess) pls , Agu ? just pls list what I have to buy if you dont mind My FR / DJ frame: COVE STIFFEE FR HardTail GEOMETRY Frame size 15.5" Top Tube Length 22.5" Head Tube Angle 67.5° Seat Tube Angle 70° Chainstay Length 16.6" BB Height 13.25" |
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Post by 32by18 on May 15, 2007 23:53:20 GMT 8
Hi Arnel... >1. a Cove Freeride HT This is the Cove Stiffee? Nice! >2. a Noleen CrossLink fork (bought 2 yrs ago never installed. circa 1998) ...its a telelever design so pls dont flame me SS purists Jessiecruz' s bike setup with the German multi-link fork inspired me to use my strange fork Your interest in SS makes you a freak already hehe. So no worries with weird setups! Can this be set up a bit stiff? To minimize bob? Or does the design eliminate fork bob? >3. old school XTR 950 square taper cranks (old stock but never been used) That'll do perfectly, can you remove the big and granny rings? (if not, who cares!) Middle ring is a 34T? That'll influence our rear cog choice too. >4. Tires. I ll use : either a spare Deore + DB wheeset OR an XT + 217 wheelset Maxxis TT Larsen Oriflame semislicks 2.1s OR Panaracer Fire Xc Pros 2.1s OR Kenda Nevegal front 2.1 + Roll X Race back 2.0 It's summer, run the semislicks >5. Race Face 100mm oldschoold stem5deg...heavy OR Ritchey 100mm 5 deg ..light OR Titec Fast Al 10deg 90mm stem Nice to have a selection of stems to tweak your positioning Don't worry about weight too much >6. FSA Orbit II headset >7. Specialized lockon grips ...the cheap ones but hey it works My thoughts exactly! >Need: >SS handle bar Got a wide riser or flat bar lying around? That'll work for now. >chain ...Kool chain ok right ? it seems too heavy though Shimano HG or IG chains are ok. The 8-speed ones are more durable. >SS cog >Tensioner You can get a Da-Bomb cog, spacer and tensioner kit from a bike shop. Those come with a 16T or 18T cog, which may be a bit tall when paired with the 34T chainring. Alternatively, you can buythe conversion kit, then look for an old cassette, and break it apart to use the 20T, 21T or 22T cog. Certain gear combos may forego the need for a tensioner, but it's all trial and error to get that bit right. >Brakes issue: Im limited to a V brake upfront due to fork design but Im willing to take the flak of using a V in front and a mech disc at the back..OR I ll just use old XT Vees front and back Vees are fine! You'll find yourself using your brakes less the more you ride SS (to conserve momentum), and you'll be picking lines going downhill (and overall travelling relatively slower than your regular FS rig). Hope my comments helped! |
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Post by Alphabolt on May 18, 2007 0:32:41 GMT 8
Agu, ALL you comments and advices help me decide on which parts to buy ...more importantly which direction to take in this project Pushing through ... thanks buddy |
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Post by Alphabolt on May 18, 2007 0:51:24 GMT 8
1. a Cove Freeride HT This is the Cove Stiffee? Nice!............... Thanks  >2. a Noleen CrossLink fork (bought 2 yrs ago never installed. circa 1998) ...its a telelever design so pls dont flame me SS purists Jessiecruz' s bike setup with the German multi-link fork inspired me to use my strange fork Your interest in SS makes you a freak already hehe. So no worries with weird setups! Can this be set up a bit stiff? To minimize bob? Or does the design eliminate fork bob? ............. I ll have to get to you on the stiff control aspect...but Im sure Bong L. and I can make the fork fit and stiff. got it : target is to eliminate fork bob>3. old school XTR 950 square taper cranks (old stock but never been used) That'll do perfectly, can you remove the big and granny rings? (if not, who cares!) Middle ring is a 34T? That'll influence our rear cog choice too............... so if its 32T then I should use 18T rear cog , right? but if its 34T which rear cog teeth # should I use ?>4. Tires. I ll use : an XT + Mavic 217 wheelset.... I ll use these for the Vees Maxxis TT Larsen Oriflame semislicks 2.1s OR Panaracer Fire Xc Pros 2.1s OR Kenda Nevegal front 2.1 + Roll X Race back 2.0 It's summer, run the semislicks .... got it >5. Race Face 100mm oldschoold stem5deg...heavy OR Ritchey 100mm 5 deg ..light OR Titec Fast Al 10deg 90mm stem...+ FSA FR stem 70mm Nice to have a selection of stems to tweak your positioning Don't worry about weight too much......... what about stem length? should I be positioned in front of my cockpit for more leverage ? 90mm or 100mm better vs 70mm for SS?>6. FSA Orbit II headset... I also have a FSA Pig DH Pro if heavy is better ;D>SS handle bar Got a wide riser or flat bar lying around? That'll work for now. ... I hve two but they are both high risers and DH heavy >chain ...Kool chain ok right ? it seems too heavy though Shimano HG or IG chains are ok. The 8-speed ones are more durable.... 8 speed chain it is thenHope my comments helped!.... They sure did !thanks again Agu |
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Post by 32by18 on May 18, 2007 10:38:35 GMT 8
>so if its 32T then I should use 18T rear cog , right? but if its 34T which rear cog teeth # should I use ? Best to start off on an easier gear - 34T front, you can try a 19T rear or 20T rear, even 21T. Remember, gear ratio is a matter of personal preference, and the typeof riding you plan to do. 34x19,20,21 should be ok for XC - with climbs and stuff >what about stem length? should I be positioned in front of my cockpit for more leverage ? 90mm or 100mm better vs 70mm for SS? Try the 90mm first, since it's a good middle ground. Easy enough to swap stems anyway!>I hve two but they are both high risers and DH heavy
why not use them first? to minimize expenses. Let's get you rolling then swap out parts if necessary. Or if the bug bites you hard enough, spring for an SS-specific frame |
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Post by Alphabolt on May 18, 2007 21:01:38 GMT 8
I ll try my FR HT first then ...should the bug grab me in its expensive jaws ... another target in this life makes it worth living just a bit more thanks , Agu |
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Post by wadesingson on May 20, 2007 20:57:58 GMT 8
@ arnel - the stiffee will work best with a 50mm to 70mm stem and a 130mm fork. it will be a sweet handling ride. enjoy!
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Post by Alphabolt on May 21, 2007 9:08:32 GMT 8
Thanks , Reymond ! I have another HT frame coming so I ll be deciding which goes where for this project See you dude |
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Post by ztnom13 on Jun 15, 2008 15:18:35 GMT 8
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lloyd
Free Rider
Posts: 376
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Post by lloyd on Jun 16, 2008 12:24:58 GMT 8
Currently, I'm using a Mosso M1 for SS ridding. Its an SS rig built for DJ and urban bombing . Haven't tried to climb this babe though since my location is here very flat. There are some inclined portions like passing onto a bridge  . The geometry is altered since I used now a Drop-off 2 w/ 150 mm travel... a wrong move... gggrrr... had brought my Sherman Firefly w/ 130 mm (bought from Bongjumper) to Cebu. The Sherman handles better compared to this zoke due to the lower travel. Not to mention its travel adjust from 90/130 mm. Back at home, my SS rig's frame is a Vision Pursuit (15")... gearing is 32/16T... front suspension is Fox Vanilla RLC 130 mm (bought from Bee)... the ride is sweet in doin' XC and DJ stuffs . Ride Hard and Ride Safe... |
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Post by ztnom13 on Jun 16, 2008 19:47:21 GMT 8
ah. mosso m1. im actually going to be doing the same thing. just need to transfer my parts from my dj4x to my newly acquired 2nd hand mosso. i hope im making the right choice.
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lloyd
Free Rider
Posts: 376
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Post by lloyd on Jun 16, 2008 21:17:53 GMT 8
@ ztnom13, You'll never go wrong with a Mosso M1 but I strongly suggest that you use a bolt on skewer at the rear wheel due to its horizontal drop out. The rear wheel can sometimes lost its axis due to the force that it will experience along the way. Over-all, I can comment that this frame is strong and able to climb like a goat ;D. Actually, the 1st Mosso M1 that I have way back in late 2004 until early 2006 serves me as an XC bike (i raced XC w/ it), DJ, FR and I even raced it DH once. It all holds the beating. This is the reason why I opted to purchase again this Mosso M1 here... for spinning, DJ and urban bombing . Ride Hard and Ride Safe... |
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Post by ztnom13 on Jun 16, 2008 22:31:48 GMT 8
hmm.. tnx for the info sir lloyd.
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lloyd
Free Rider
Posts: 376
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Post by lloyd on Jun 16, 2008 23:07:15 GMT 8
@ ztnom13,
Your welcome!
Ride Hard and Ride Safe...
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Post by yukon on Jun 18, 2008 6:13:21 GMT 8
locking the thread since it is being migrated to the .org pls reply to HERE |
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...the SS and the DJ frames are basically (+ / - a few mms) the same except for the headtube angles 
;D I already have a light DJ frame. I ll just use my extra parts and buy the needed drivetrain parts ;D
. The geometry is altered since I used now a Drop-off 2 w/ 150 mm travel... a wrong move... gggrrr... had brought my Sherman Firefly w/ 130 mm (bought from Bongjumper) to Cebu. The Sherman handles better compared to this zoke due to the lower travel. Not to mention its travel adjust from 90/130 mm.
