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Post by BrusKO on Mar 9, 2008 5:57:12 GMT 8
Mario's death got me thinking of how hard SHOULD we really push ourselves. On rides, I make sure I do bursts that sometimes reach 101% of my max heart rate but oftentimes, I'm happy with 97%. I have to admit: I look forward to this all the time. I love this kind of pain. Is biking, especially for us addicts an abusive sport for the heart? How hard should we push ourselves to the limit? How often should we do this, or should we do this at all? I quote Marcs' article at www.pinoymtbiker.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=fitness&action=display&n=1&thread=4749&page=1"...Here's how it works: T-Max is the length of time you can hold your peak power output before succumbing to exhaustion--or, scientific jargon aside, how long you can ride really, really hard until you feel so much like you're dying that you stop. For most of us, that's about four to six minutes...." Who do we listen to: the trainers and coaches, or our heart?
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Post by allegra on Mar 9, 2008 10:23:24 GMT 8
Last year , I didnt push myself at all Didnt up my heart rate , rested a lot , didnt even do a single interval didnt get the flu , migraines stopped , walang fever at night Puro personal best sa races and I was doing it at a lower heart rate too Definitely , I would have done better if I did intervals after the base training Satisfied nako sa results ng base no pain e Research mo periodization ng training You just cant do intervals basta basta nalang , di kakayanin ng katawan no matter how tough our minds is I used to get fevers,and a bad case of flu and I blame my knee injuries to overtraining and pushing it , when my body wasnt ready Pag kumpleto base training mo , your body would be better prepared for the stress of intervals Base training = big engine intervals/anaerobic = turbo charger big engine + turbo charger = joaqin burdado! If you like to pick one between the 2 ( like me ) , pick the bigger engine Definitely , you should develop a bigger engine before even messing w/ the turbocharger I miss training
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Post by Ben Dover on Mar 9, 2008 10:31:29 GMT 8
yeah, got me thinking also...but its one helluva way to die don't you think? doing one of the things you love most...yes thats right, just one of the things...i guess the real pain will always be on the people you gonna leave behind...imagining that gives me "kurot sa puso" if i may say.
plus, imagine that the last faces you gonna see are those of noel, ian, bruce, jon and paul? asking, dude, ok ka lang? dang!! no way!! Lord, take me now while i'm here at my home with my family. ;D
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Post by BrusKO on Mar 9, 2008 11:28:08 GMT 8
Dude, don't you want me to perform CPR on you first?
Lenard, sige na nga... LSD muna ako! Sometimes though during a ride with the boys, you can't help but gun it! Killer insticts kumbaga... the thrill of competition... friendly competition that is.
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Post by yukon on Mar 9, 2008 11:59:24 GMT 8
Thanks for starting this Bruce I guess this all started w/ me seeing my neurologist, cardiologist, sleep specialist, vertigo specialist (EENT) I've been careful with my biking habits. I am really wary of pushing myself to the limit if you see whats in my bag when I do long rides it'd be Catapress and Serc, that's for emergency purposes. Worst case I bring my portable BP monitor with me. As to pushing myself...I just take every trail in moderation. I had a relative who had a stroke at his mid 20s and his lifestyle was basketball and basketball and drinking, left him half paralyzed. I'm not scaring you guys but its really with lifestyle if you're living a good one I guess no worries. As I mentioned in the ToF post those nearing 40s should really see a doctor lalo na kung may nararamdaman kayo (Trans. even if its a funny feeling such as diziness, numbness, cold sweat ... see you doctor). An ECG can be helpfuland a Kattus test too. If you got money get an executive check up ... that'd be good investment.
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bm5er
All-Mountain Rider
Posts: 168
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Post by bm5er on Mar 9, 2008 21:45:17 GMT 8
Before I did my 3 5k events last January, I had a complete work up in December - 2D-echo, stress test, all lab tests - blood, urine, cholesterol, sugar, blood pressure, liver, etc.
It costs less than 10k at Borough Eastwood - way less than an XTR crankset. Considering how much we spend on our bikes, think about this - your body should be your best investment - look after it and get "XTR-level" health checks as well.
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Post by allegra on Mar 9, 2008 22:20:39 GMT 8
Before I did my 3 5k events last January, I had a complete work up in December - 2D-echo, stress test, all lab tests - blood, urine, cholesterol, sugar, blood pressure, liver, etc. It costs less than 10k at Borough Eastwood - way less than an XTR crankset. Considering how much we spend on our bikes, think about this - your body should be your best investment - look after it and get "XTR-level" health checks as well. isnt diet a major factor sa results ng tests na yan , rather than how hard you train? I eat a lot of fat your making me nervous hehe
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Post by grnhrnt on Mar 10, 2008 13:30:50 GMT 8
When I started biking, our group of beginner's would try to bike up Sta. Rosa's Cardiac hill. In the beginning I would get light headed almost to the point of fainting. When I would stop because I couldn't turn the pedals anymore, I could hardly breathe. Panting for a minute till I recover. I didn't have a heart rate monitor yet at the time but i would guess my heart rate was more that 100 %. I eventually would reach the bukohan and I remembered what Anthony of Sabak mentioned once. He said you have a strong heart cause you didn't keel over and die. I'm sure he was kidding, but ever since I thought that was the limit.
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Post by enzo on Mar 10, 2008 15:31:57 GMT 8
Thanks for starting this Bruce I guess this all started w/ me seeing my neurologist, cardiologist, sleep specialist, vertigo specialist (EENT) I've been careful with my biking habits. I am really wary of pushing myself to the limit if you see whats in my bag when I do long rides it'd be Catapress and Serc, that's for emergency purposes. Worst case I bring my portable BP monitor with me. As to pushing myself...I just take every trail in moderation. I had a relative who had a stroke at his mid 20s and his lifestyle was basketball and basketball and drinking, left him half paralyzed. I'm not scaring you guys but its really with lifestyle if you're living a good one I guess no worries. As I mentioned in the ToF post those nearing 40s should really see a doctor lalo na kung may nararamdaman kayo (Trans. even if its a funny feeling such as diziness, numbness, cold sweat ... see you doctor). An ECG can be helpfuland a Kattus test too. If you got money get an executive check up ... that'd be good investment. Yukon, brad, you're seeing so many specialist I hope they are not women ;D On a serious note, this is a simple trip to the doctor which we always set aside. Eric(bm5er) laid it so simple to us, a fraction of the price of our bike or parts.
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Post by yukon on Mar 10, 2008 19:40:52 GMT 8
Yukon, brad, you're seeing so many specialist I hope they are not women ;D On a serious note, this is a simple trip to the doctor which we always set aside. Eric(bm5er) laid it so simple to us, a fraction of the price of our bike or parts. Surprisingly, only my cardio is female and she's middle aged the rest are macho looking men ;D ;D ;D Yes, once in a while see your doctor ... take advantage if you got HMO or if the company pays for it. Thats what I do ;D
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Post by Alphabolt on Mar 10, 2008 20:06:28 GMT 8
When I started biking, our group of begineer's would try to bike up Sta. Rosa's Cardiac hill. In the beginning I would get light headded and almost to the point of fainting. When I would stop because I couldn't turn the pedals anymore, I could hardly breathe. Panting for a minute till I recover. I ddin't have a heart reate monitor yet at the time but i would guess my heart rate was more that 100 %. I eventually would reach the bukohan and I remembered what Anthony of Sabak mentioned once. He said you have a strong heart cause you didn't keel over and die. I'm sure he was kidding, but ever since I thought that was the limit. those were the days huh Ramon ! way back in 2004 and 2005 yes everyone...racer Ramon was once a newbie also..he was also the one who almost got us both killed bombing down the turns of Timberland at 57 kph (his cyclocomp) on XC bikes I used to think that lightheadedness and numbness were part of biking back then laspagan talaga ... now I try not to get myself into "ratratans and pasaway rides" specially when the trail is not familiar to me I cant help but ride hard when the trails are in the south ..munti and sta rosa ... riding hard is real MTBiking for me yeah you cant take away the risks from the sport but you can do something : 1. med checkups 2. medicine on your bags 3. ride with guys you can pace with (slightly faster than you)
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Post by arcireyes on Mar 10, 2008 20:22:02 GMT 8
after being diagnosed with some heart problem as a result of my hypertension, joining organized PinoyMTBiker rides is now history for me (as doing so would mean courting disaster.....hehehe) but i still love biking so........i look for biking partners who can have the patience of keeping up with my poser-pace, i chart my route to see to it that i don't get over-exercised and do it solo on a very relaxed pace. it seems that i'm not a mtbiker anymore since i do a lot of roadtrips nowadays, okay i'm now an mtb poser hehehe. for me it's knowing your condition, taking your meds religiously and accept with humility that your present condition can only take you too much. "pushing hard" is now a foregone phrase in my vocabulary nowadays ;D
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Post by mtbrider06 on Mar 10, 2008 20:33:34 GMT 8
I have the same experience at the old Cardiac hill two years ago. After persistent and constant riding I was able to ford it several times with ease. I do not have a HBM at that time. Now with HBM we tried the reverse palace reaching more than 100 % several times on the last stretch. My observation was as you ride on the same route your peak HB became lower as your body adjust to the pain. Now I can take that with 90 - 95 % of my HB.
After two days of long hard ride, i experience flu and knee pains. In my mind is no pain no gain. Now i'm thinking twice if my heart can take it at my age above 45. what if my heart can't take it one time, I always ride alone to reverse palace as not so many riders love to have this route.
I did last month was to remove the Granny ring on my newly assembled hard tail with 11 - 32 T cogs. My plan is to have a stronger legs and knees through constant climb at palace and cardiac hills.
After every weekend hard ride my immune system is low that I have cold for the next two days or so.
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Post by allegra on Mar 10, 2008 20:37:53 GMT 8
I dunno about health issues ng training/race stress What I really hate is when I fall asleep during the after race party... still holding a bottle of beer....in the middle of conversation hehe
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bm5er
All-Mountain Rider
Posts: 168
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Post by bm5er on Mar 12, 2008 14:33:39 GMT 8
My cardio said that you should stop at the point before you feel you will faint na. So sensing that you will lose it next should be your max point. When I did my stress test, I told her I can still pull through more minutes after 16 minutes at level 7? out of 8. Then I asked if I can go over max heart rate which is around 200. She said for as long as you don't feel you will faint, it's still manageable. Fainting is a sign your heart is not pumping enough oxygen to your brain, so save some of those brain cells and ease down before that point. Oh and 1 more thing, recovery is critical. You should recover at least 20 points down in 1 minute or so from your max heart rate. So keep watch as soon as you ease down, take note of your recovery rate as well.
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Post by BrusKO on Mar 12, 2008 15:17:09 GMT 8
Eric, so you can do 198 BPMs at least???
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bm5er
All-Mountain Rider
Posts: 168
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Post by bm5er on Mar 12, 2008 15:29:39 GMT 8
I've hit over 200 a number of times, on very short intervals lang, though I do not like the feeling. So I try not to reach that although sometimes when you are about to reach the top of the hill, you tend to push it. The last time I reached 200 my heart was really pounding so hard I got a bit scared. When I rested after that and checked my recovery rate, it was normally going down naman and I was able to continue my ride for the day. The good thing was I did not feel I was fainting so I was not worried.
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timotz
All-Mountain Rider
Keep going!! Its not yet your time.
Posts: 187
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Post by timotz on Mar 12, 2008 18:30:42 GMT 8
-this thread got me thinking. -felt guilty coz every pay day im thinking of my bike instead of investing on my health, I dont even have insurance. -This is a wake up call for us fellow riders, let us check or tune ourself up first, mind body and spirit. Cant imagine my loveones being worried sick everytime i ride.
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Post by jr on Mar 12, 2008 21:33:37 GMT 8
You should listen to your heart and your body reaction. In training hitting yourself over max HR in long period of time you will end up to over training. The key is to do 85 -95% HRM on intervals twice a week with recovery ride in between and a long ride once a week will develop endurance. In few weeks you HR will reach the peak but when the training continues will turn the other way. Your HR will drop and gain more power .
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Post by BrusKO on Mar 12, 2008 23:31:04 GMT 8
Dang that 200. I can't ever reach that.
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Post by jr on Mar 13, 2008 0:10:42 GMT 8
My cardio said that you should stop at the point before you feel you will faint na. So sensing that you will lose it next should be your max point. When I did my stress test, I told her I can still pull through more minutes after 16 minutes at level 7? out of 8. Then I asked if I can go over max heart rate which is around 200. She said for as long as you don't feel you will faint, it's still manageable. Fainting is a sign your heart is not pumping enough oxygen to your brain, so save some of those brain cells and ease down before that point. Oh and 1 more thing, recovery is critical. You should recover at least 20 points down in 1 minute or so from your max heart rate. So keep watch as soon as you ease down, take note of your recovery rate as well. ..you much have high VOmax. 200 MHR not mistaken are for younger person. But if you reaching 200 on your 30's you have have high VOmax. Lance Amstrong average during his TDF was around 200.
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Post by anshwa on Mar 13, 2008 0:14:13 GMT 8
Awesome thread!
I think pushing yourself depends largely on your fitness level and competitiveness. For those of you who've always been athletic & competitive, it's easy to know when & how much you need to push yourself to go longer, faster or bigger.
For those who were never the athletic type & not really in good shape, you may want to start slow & easy. Work your way up gradually.
I've always had to go through the slow & easy process when I've been out of the saddle for quite a while. It always hurt so much the first time I'm out riding. But then after several rides, I'd feel the strength building & at that point I start "mini" pushing myself.
Oh, & recovery is the most important phase when you want to push yourself every ride. Give you body time to rest & recovery before that next big push you'll be doing on an epic ride.
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Post by angelobryant on Mar 13, 2008 8:35:31 GMT 8
AFAIK, one cannot exceed their own Max HR. Why? Because if you reached more than your MHR, that only means your previously known MHR is not really your max. What happens when you get light headed is you get into a level of oxygen debt wherein you heart and lungs cannot supply the oxygen your body needs. You need to rest when this happens so that the oxygen debt could be repaid. Google up functional threshold power or lactate threshold. What also happened was you went over you FTP or LT that is why you get oxygen debt. The higher you are over your FTP, the more oxygen debt there will be. The higher you FTP, the faster you can go at the same Rate of Perceived Exertion. HTH
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Post by angelobryant on Mar 13, 2008 8:44:23 GMT 8
I have the same experience at the old Cardiac hill two years ago. After persistent and constant riding I was able to ford it several times with ease. I do not have a HBM at that time. Now with HBM we tried the reverse palace reaching more than 100 % several times on the last stretch. My observation was as you ride on the same route your peak HB became lower as your body adjust to the pain. Now I can take that with 90 - 95 % of my HB. After two days of long hard ride, i experience flu and knee pains. In my mind is no pain no gain. Now i'm thinking twice if my heart can take it at my age above 45. what if my heart can't take it one time, I always ride alone to reverse palace as not so many riders love to have this route. I did last month was to remove the Granny ring on my newly assembled hard tail with 11 - 32 T cogs. My plan is to have a stronger legs and knees through constant climb at palace and cardiac hills. After every weekend hard ride my immune system is low that I have cold for the next two days or so. you are experiencing knee pains because 1. your trying too much to push a big gear. some try to stay at a cadence of 90 and above. by doing this, you are forced to distribute the stress between your legs and your heart. 2. your seat height is not optimal 3. fore or aft of seat is not optimal 4. previous knee injuries from a different sport. just guessing
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Post by allegra on Mar 13, 2008 8:59:30 GMT 8
You should listen to your heart and your body reaction. In training hitting yourself over max HR in long period of time you will end up to over training. The key is to do 85 -95% HRM on intervals twice a week with recovery ride in between and a long ride once a week will develop endurance. In few weeks you HR will reach the peak but when the training continues will turn the other way. Your HR will drop and gain more power . Hi fafa Jr, That was what I used to do 2 interval sessions a week , plus LSDs during the weekends I'd get overtrained agad And tagal ng interval between the LSDs ( weekends lang ), it doesnt train your aerobic system efficiently So I do nothing but LSDs and pedaling drills during the base period and nothing else AFTER , the base period then I start some intervals Habang palapit ng palapit ang race , mas madami na high intensity training and little na ang LSD until you peak Well that's my program , I just too lazy/busy to follow it But I usually finish base training lang
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Post by gadgets88 on Mar 13, 2008 9:26:54 GMT 8
for me it's knowing your condition, taking your meds religiously and accept with humility that your present condition can only take you too much. "pushing hard" is now a foregone phrase in my vocabulary nowadays ;D First of all, the news about Mr. Mario Sison was very shocking indeed. What a great-looking guy suddenly succumbing to heart attack?!!! My condolences to the family. Doesn't it just remind all of us that amidst our pursuit of the sport, or training and racing, of pushing ourselves to the limit, of priding ourselves to be the fittest and supposedly healthiest members of the community, we are all mortals pala? meaning, not invincible, the will made of steel but the body is flesh? We have health problems just the same, we will eventually grow old just the same, most probably have the SAME health problems as our forefathers had... whether we work out or not, whether we take care of our diet or not, whether we live healthier lifestyles or not. So it is very important that we study our family history, and respect the eventuality of failure someday. Study the medical conditions of your parents, your grandparents, your uncles and aunts. Look at the statistics and don't be surprised that most members of the family will follow suit in having the same health conditions, most probably. It's called DNA. What defines (magically) the athletic abilities in your family, carries along with it, the genetic instructions for increased predisposition to certain illnesses as well. So it is utmost important to monitor your health and look for signs when you're past the age of 30. While you're healthy right now, I suggest you get a health card if your company doesn't provide. What is a health card? Hmm... I think we should start a new thread on health care cards here
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leflea
Free Rider
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Posts: 327
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Post by leflea on Mar 13, 2008 10:23:15 GMT 8
i don't know anything about HR and VO max. but will have to read about it soon.
sometimes i feel concerned about my biking habits. i've not been bike commuting for a long time now and i feel that it has terribly affected my biking performance. so during weekends i really push myself to make up for the lost weekday mileage. last weekend i missed a trail ride. so i tried wall-timberland-giant but was so frustrated when i found out i left my ID at home and the guard wouldn't let me inside Timberland. out of resentment, i repeatedly climbed the wall till i couldn't feel my balls (bad saddle?). now after a few days i feel there's something wrong with my knee joint. i feel a slight sensation while walking. it's not pain but seems like it's not functioning properly.
can we get hernia by biking too much? can it do damage on our muscles and joints? are there indicators that could tell us that we're pushing ourselves much much above our limit? is it dangerous to be periodically above one's limit?
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leflea
Free Rider
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Posts: 327
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Post by leflea on Mar 13, 2008 10:28:34 GMT 8
i guess sir allegra is right. in my case it would be, daily bike commuting = basic training/big engine regular weekend trail rides = turbo charger ika nga, wag pilitin kung wala ka sa kundisyon (trans, skipping basic training = recipe for disaster) Last year , I didnt push myself at all Didnt up my heart rate , rested a lot , didnt even do a single interval didnt get the flu , migraines stopped , walang fever at night Puro personal best sa races and I was doing it at a lower heart rate too Definitely , I would have done better if I did intervals after the base training Satisfied nako sa results ng base no pain e Research mo periodization ng training You just cant do intervals basta basta nalang , di kakayanin ng katawan no matter how tough our minds is I used to get fevers,and a bad case of flu and I blame my knee injuries to overtraining and pushing it , when my body wasnt ready Pag kumpleto base training mo , your body would be better prepared for the stress of intervals Base training = big engine intervals/anaerobic = turbo charger big engine + turbo charger = joaqin burdado! If you like to pick one between the 2 ( like me ) , pick the bigger engine Definitely , you should develop a bigger engine before even messing w/ the turbocharger I miss training
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Post by allegra on Mar 13, 2008 11:45:16 GMT 8
i guess sir allegra is right. in my case it would be, daily bike commuting = basic training/big engine regular weekend trail rides = turbo charger ika nga, wag pilitin kung wala ka sa kundisyon (trans, skipping basic training = recipe for disaster) Last year , I didnt push myself at all Didnt up my heart rate , rested a lot , didnt even do a single interval didnt get the flu , migraines stopped , walang fever at night Puro personal best sa races and I was doing it at a lower heart rate too Definitely , I would have done better if I did intervals after the base training Satisfied nako sa results ng base no pain e Research mo periodization ng training You just cant do intervals basta basta nalang , di kakayanin ng katawan no matter how tough our minds is I used to get fevers,and a bad case of flu and I blame my knee injuries to overtraining and pushing it , when my body wasnt ready Pag kumpleto base training mo , your body would be better prepared for the stress of intervals Base training = big engine intervals/anaerobic = turbo charger big engine + turbo charger = joaqin burdado! If you like to pick one between the 2 ( like me ) , pick the bigger engine Definitely , you should develop a bigger engine before even messing w/ the turbocharger I miss training Just to make it clear I dont do intervals until I've done months of base training/building a bigger engine The hardest thing about it is mahirap paniwalaan hehe Hard to believe you'll be faster by going slow Of course , it's not as simple as that pero basically , that's the program
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Post by allegra on Mar 13, 2008 12:22:08 GMT 8
Maybe this will help I'll try to make it simple coz it's so d@mn boring! You dont use one energy system You use different gas tanks at different heart rate levels At lower heart rates , you use the aerobic energy system It can make you go on all day , kaso it's too slow magproduce ng energy So pag tumaas na heart rate mo , dehins na nya kaya isupply energy kasi mabagal nga sya magproduce You body now switches to using Anaerobic system( turbo charger ) It's produces power quickly, kaso it relies on carbs ( have you eaten?) and produces lactic acid kaya di ka naman tatagal Mas efficient if yu train them seperately Build a bigger engine muna( aerobic system ) ,so that your body can do more work/go faster at lower heart rates Only Then do intervals so it learns to burn carbs and dispose lactic acid more efficiently to go even faster there's more to it , kaso you'll probably fall asleep I'm writing this from memory and it's been awhile, so someone correct me if I'm wrong If I am wrong , then go buy your own f#$%^n physio book and read it yourself edit - forgot the smileys
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