Descending Techniques

[bernie]

During downhills or a long long descend from Tagaytay to Sta. Rosa or Silang, do you put your weights at tha back of your bike or you ride as is. Whats the best way to minimize the speed aside from applying your burning brake shoes or pads?

[Bikester]

bernie,

good question,yun din ang problema ko,and di ko pa rin alam ang sagot,somebody help us ;D

[weenie]

Long descents I lower my seatpost and sit. When it gets really steep I put my weight on the rear tire (easier to do when the seat is lowered). This is the only way to get the rear tire to bite. Don't forget to use the front brake but modulate it well...

[jr]

Cornering at Speed
When taking fast corners get your weight back and scrub off speed before you enter the turn. As you reach the entrance to the corner release the brakes, but do not take you fingers from the levers just in case you need to feather a bit, lean into the turn, shifting your weight back and down onto the outside pedal. Press down on the inside grip to assist in steering through the turn while you feel your weight on the outside pedal. Carve the turn with a bit of a twist of your right ankle--not too much, just a bit. As you carve past the apex of the turn, and as soon as you are upright enough to pedal, turn on the speed once again and hammer out. Setting up correct body position is very important in every aspect of mountain biking, but during high speed corners it is very important to maintain your center over the bike by being loose yet controlled.

Rough Stuff on Nearly Flat Ground and Mild Downhill Grades
Babyheads, sand, and combinations of loose rock and archored bedrock on slightly downhill grades are best assaulted under power. This technique is very similar to sand. Momentum is important. Do not use your brakes. If you are running big travel, and you should be, it is more important to keep the gyros going than to pick a smooth line. The steeper the downhill, the more you will be able to coast, but we are talking about pedaling ground here. You should be in one gear too hard to pedal, rather than gearing down to spin. This makes the rough trail smooth out. Stay loose, stay back a bit, keep powering those pedals to maintain control. Keep your weight well back, floating your front wheel over the rudest obstacles. Let your rear end travel absorb most of the punishment, but do not stiffen your legs. Let them act as secondary suspension members.

Steep Rough Technical
Look for the smooth line. Put your front wheel on it and don't make any mistakes. Don't worry about your rear wheel.

Down a ledge, off a ledge~ When riding off of a ledge you always have your weight balanced slightly back. Pull back on the bars and keep your bike level as you leave the ledge. As the rear wheel rides off of the ledge shift your weight forward. This is so that the bike falls evenly as you leave the ledge. Long travel full suspension means you want to land to distribute the weight to both wheels on impact. The less travel you have the more you will want to favor landing on the rear wheel first. If you find yourself in an endo, lock your REAR!!!! brake, keep your weight back and your rear wheel will drop more rapidly because you have turned off your rear gyroscope. This allows the weight to fall faster.

Up a ledge~ Pull back on the bars as if you were going to ride a wheelie and once you get your front wheel up as high as the ledge you are trying to get up, jump your weight forward and throw your bars up and forward. This will bring your rear wheel up. Pedal as your tire hits the ledge. Keep your weight centered over the wheels.

Loose stuff on a turn~ Slow down, control your speed BEFORE you hit the @#$%. As you enter the rough loose stuff be it gravel or loose rocks, hit it at a slower speed, then just treat it like a turn as described above. Weight the inside bar, the outside pedal.


Also use Body Armor. I have one but barely use them (depends on the trails conditions)

[gulliver]

nice article jr...very helpful! where'd you get it brad?

bernie,

if the road is smooth, sitting down should not be a problem. leaning a bit forward to lessen drag or wind resistance will naturally force you to place your butt a little more towards the rear portion of your seat... but when going into curves, you'll probably want to lean a little bit into the direction of the turn and add more weight to the front tire for a surer bite.

speed control naman, on and off application of brakes (or feathering) is the way to go. idea is to allow your brakes to cool off at intervals... vs. constantly applying your brakes resulting in hot brakes and possible brake failure if done for too long a time. if road is smooth and straight, using front (about 60%) brake and rear (about 40%) simultaneously has worked well for me. curves and technical surfaces would reverse the proportion of brake pressure application i would think

if the road is technical and steep....and you want to do it fast ;D jr's tips are the way to go.

i like weenie's description too, have tried it on a few occasions ... and on occasion overdid it to the point na nalaglag ako sa bike hahaha ;D balance is the key...and lower tire pressure for a surer grip on the track. this is where tubeless tires excel

[jr]

I downloaded and save in my hard drive 6 months ago. I read it once in a while when we plan down hilling in the weekend. This well re-fresh my memory. Getting older you know.;D ;D ;D ;D

[gulliver]

jr said:

I downloaded and save in my hard drive 6 months ago. I read it once in a while when we plan down hilling in the weekend. This well re-fresh my memory. Getting older you know.;D ;D ;D ;D

hahahaha, aren't we all! ride safe amigo ;D ;D

[bernie]

Ano ba ang mas matagal ang tolerance sa friction, ang Disc Brake o ang V-Brakes?

[[ eRECTUS ]]

bernie said:

Ano ba ang mas matagal ang tolerance sa friction, ang Disc Brake o ang V-Brakes?

AFAIK Disc ofcourse

[gonz]

gulliver said:

nice article jr...very helpful! where'd you get it brad?

speed control naman, on and off application of brakes (or feathering) is the way to go. idea is to allow your brakes to cool off at intervals... vs. constantly applying your brakes resulting in hot brakes and possible brake failure if done for too long a time. if road is smooth and straight, using front (about 60%) brake and rear (about 40%) simultaneously has worked well for me. curves and technical surfaces would reverse the proportion of brake pressure application i would think

I've read an article from a bike magazine re: braking technique. simple lang ang instruction that was written there.

"use the rear brakes to slow you down and the front brakes to stop". so kung feathering the brakes, pwede rin. . . rear brakes, then front. . .you'll slow down, then release. . . repeat as you come to full stop or the speed that you want. tried applying this and it works.

there's also this exercise that would help you learn how to properly control the bike and teaches you to maximize the brakes as well. again the instruction was simple. " the objective is to try to descend by limiting the speed at walking pace by applying brakes ( as mentioned above ) without skidding or being off balanced". this will help you master yung na-mention na first instruction.

These simple braking techniques would help even if galing sa mabilis na takbo from a long downhill. Again the idea is balance.

[Poseur]

if u keep thinking about these rules while you're heading down a steep terrain you'll do an endo for sure. the best thing u can do is to commit yourself into doing it and point your front wheel to where u wanna go. if you're feeling so-so then u mind as well not do it... you'll get yourself hurt. walk it and ride for another day. it'll always be there.

when you're facing down your rear brakes dnt do much, just makes u feel nice that u have it on. use the front but use it w/ care. if you go down too slow on a steep descent you will do an endo for sure... if not fall sideways.

always look at where you wanna go... never at where u don't want to go. hold on to your bars and go.

i sit down only when my legs are tired from taking all the bumps. if you're not tired and you're sitting down then you should be looking for places to do some small launches like some rocks or dirt by the side of the road. yeaha!

[ygolote]

i keep my weight slightly to the rear but not too far out that the front gets light and twitchy. It kind of helps to keep your weight lower. There are about ten inches of travel if you loosen your knees and elbows.

[REDNEB]

Ano jr.? cornering and weight back? masasaktan kayo nyan! ;D

When Cornering kahit batuhan pa yan always shift your weight forward para kumapit ang gulong sa harap at lumiko ang bike!

Same principle sa Big bike . motocross at dH!

Descending: keep your weight centered and stand up!pedals flat legs loose shoulders loose grip relaxed!


Ano ba tinuturo nyo? Masakatan kayo o matuto kayo?

Lean back? the moment u lean back u lose 50% stability on ur ride....ask any pro racer Kahit sa BRC dati walang magtuturo ng lean back! mamatay ka sa kaka-lean back!

Anything on two wheelsssssssss leaning back is the fastest way to crash........ask any pro! ;D

Technical riding requires forward sight, motion n balance! walang technical sa likod! lahat forward!

OK try mo to baba ka sa trail naka lean back...ano nag wabol? harap! hirap lumiko ano? puro preno at kalat?

Try mo the right way.......u get more control, more feel and dehins ka napapraning na di mo makita yung nasa harap ng fork mo! e lean back ng lean back eh!

Ang Lean-back actually is to position yourself into a crouching standing position with your weight still centered on the bike for stability!

[REDNEB]

Reality check

At speed of over 65kph the pro-stance gives u 30 more feet per second sa line of sight mo. which gives u the ability to see the terrain and to react faster and appropriately to it.

Your center weight also allows you to adjust n shift the weight according to terrain thus giving you more control when in teeth rattling sections.

Brakes are only used when halting to a full-stop. remember the slower u approach the higher the risk of crashing. The faster u execute the approach the faster u get passed it with less risk.

U become more susceptible to crashes at low speeds bcuz u do not have enough momentum to clear the certain obstacle.

Cornering without braking(still at 65kph)

Apply more pedal power once u are in the apex of the turn! braking only makes u wipeout and crash! try mo ng malaman mo!e.g. Motocross di nyo napapansin we apply more gas during turns para mag grip yung tire at mailiko kami at ang halos naka upo nako sa tanke! same principle with a Mtbike brothers...

Flying and landing obstacles:

when u fly u always pump(huck). u get more clearance between u and the ground so u have more time to adjust to your landing(mga .25sec) ;D.

If u corner at low speeds with loose stuff? with both your fingers on the brakes? cge kita tayo sa factory ng betadine!

OK to sum it all up.... try it. ;D

[allegra]

Pareng Redneb,
When you shift your weight forward, you lower your torso din di ba? Para yung center of gravity mababa din
Tama?
Any pics pards?

[REDNEB]

yup tama yan... bale ang porma dapat para kang namboboso sa butas sa ilalim ng pinto ng CR ng kapitbahay! ;D

[stormloader]

badong,

guilty rin ako sa sobrang lean back minsan. tenks for pointing out yung fallacy dito. when you think about it really makes sense yung lean forward for more speed and control.

eh teka so yung lean back ba eh sa sobrang steep lang na descent nyo ginagamit? ganun nga ba?

[Bikester]

guys,

so ano dapat pag descending,lean forward or backward???gumugulo ata ah.

Personally, I tend to lean backward

[REDNEB]

Brothers try watching videos ng DHracers.

Kahit harangan kami ng rock garden na may bato sinlalaki ng makina ng jeep(Sa japan yun 1999). We never lean back... binabanga namin ng gulong yun sabay bomba(Huck nga) sabay hila sa pedal......Pak!!!!!!!!!!... Clear yun sabay isa pa isa pa hangang humiwalay na yung kaluluwa ko naka-dungaw ako sa manibela... ginamit ko yung lean-back nung mga 70degrees na yun pader.....pero the whole course clean!

Ang Dher nag lelean back lang pag humahatak pero mula start hangang finish nakatayo at nakagitna minsan naka dungaw pa yan sa harap!

Leanback+Frontbrake=Serious muthaf.... endo! ;D
Leanback+speed=roadkill..... ;D

Imagine at 55kph na lang cge, Lean back ka sabay bumanga ka sa bato na malaki sabay wabble na iyan na........iyan na! ..... .......Ano gagawin mo san ka pupunta?...........ha?Para kang binato sa catapult! ..Brace for impact na?

Imagine this naman..at 65kph naman naka-center ka, your feet flat on your pedals naka relax lahat lalo na grip mo naka 2 finger tap ka lang sa right lever mo. Feel the speed.........................Visualize...........tell me what u see. .....U have complete focus on the trail u can feel all the control and confidence in your hands. You are one with your bike and u have never been relaxed like that before. ayan ang feeling pag "in the zone" na meron naman minsan parang ine-epilipsy! ;D Sobra sa Adrenaline na stroke! ;D lakas kasi mag kape eh!

Just stay relaxed and focus.........pag may tech section ready kana naka porma ka na sa approach sa entry point........pasok.....bomba...keep it loose. Bket mas stable kahet mabilis? nakaka galaw ka sa bike mo eh.

When you are relaxed your mas malakas ang senses mo kc mas mabilis makapagreact ang utak mo at walang ibang work load(Cellphones are number 1 causes of accidents for 2 wheeled vehicles).....(Saka asawa na masungit at tutol sa pagbibike! ;D)

Mas mabilis ang senses mo so 110% ang balance mo. Na ishishift mo weight mo sa offset motion ng bike pag natatagtag ka!

Now Descending and cornering:

Wag ka matakot na di liliko ang bike sa sobra bilis....remember kahit ano angle ng liko maintain speed on approach upto apex of turn then suddenly sprint on the pedals until clear of the exit point. And remember to press on your front tires(Bomba)frequently para lumiko yung bike, for traction nga!

Did u hear in any of the above na gumamit ako ng brakes? Noh......kc at those speeds if u panick and squeeze into never neverland... its gona wake u up in a world of hurt the next morning. ;D

What is the best thing to do bili ka cyclo computer na mura karga mo sa DH bike mo. Then try stuff out. always ride with a partner.......... ;D

In short: Sprint,Huck,Jump,Land,Descend,roll centered!

Kanino ba nauso yung lean-back?

[gulliver]

i personally think this lean-back discussion is being taken out of context...guys, re-read the posts...you're coming from different worlds and agree w/ both of you (jr & budbender-redneb)...but the whole point of leaning back is centering your weight on the bike vis-a-vis speed, angle of attack, terrain, tires etc. etc.

i don't need to be a racer to understand these things. just get a little experience and you'll know what these guys are talking about...and neither one is wrong when taken in context....

[jr]

REDNEB,
I do an occasional downhill ride but your point of you of descending techniques is different. Leaning back (not to back) in a short period of time during descending is appropriate to have a better control of the terrain and I also used front brake.

Here are few article about descending.

gorp.away.com/gorp/activity/biking/skills/descending_mtn2.htm
www.chamonix.net/english/mtb/descending.htm

www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/mtb_descending Number 6.

[stormloader]

redneb,

brad sinubukan ko yung suggestion mo na medyo mag-lean forward on high-speed semi-technical descent (not really steep, mas gradual pa) and immediately i felt much faster and more in control of my bike...

minimal front brakes pa...

hehe i felt like a DH racer at the time. kaso nung patapos na yung trail dehins ko natiis mag-jump from a rock/ramp. medyo napadiin ata sa rear brake..ayun nag-skid dahil sa slippery mud. my knee/shin guards saved my knee caps. i wiped out but twas really a rush that i can't help but smile

[Poseur]

are u a TRUE downhiller? bud's advice, u have to understand, is coming from a DH racer. most of us don't ride like that. if you ride agressively (centred) and then sees a huge rock in the middle, 90% will squeeze both brakes... and most of us will do an endo. if you are riding down a technical section and you're just some weekend warrior on a bike... lean back. the mistake w/ beginners is one... do not lean back and squeezes the brake... endo. two: u do lean back but leaning way too much when it's not really that steep (steep being a relative term)... so u lose control of the bike coz most of the weight is in the back. kinda like being partly riding your bike from behind. so balance the front and back is the key.... leaning forward on a descent is not balance. it's front heavy to begin w/ even if you are positioned in the middle, it's definitely front heavy if your head is above the handlebars. if you can do that then you must be going down something NOT steep enough.

so what is steep for you? kamloops steep? cypress steeps? watch some NSX movies...

[sworksmike]

Agree peachy depende rin siguro ang technique sa gamit mo bike and amount of travel ng fork mo. Pagdh bike pwd ciguro nasa gitna ka and dumungaw sa harapan, pero kung xc bike magbobottom yung front fork sabay endo at isa pa iba ang geometry ng 2 bike kaya di ata pwd pareho technique gamitin kumbaga may basic moves lang na pwd iapply.

[stormloader]

peachy said:

are u a TRUE downhiller? bud's advice, u have to understand, is coming from a DH racer. most of us don't ride like that. if you ride agressively (centred) and then sees a huge rock in the middle, 90% will squeeze both brakes... and most of us will do an endo. if you are riding down a technical section and you're just some weekend warrior on a bike... lean back. the mistake w/ beginners is one... do not lean back and squeezes the brake... endo. two: u do lean back but leaning way too much when it's not really that steep (steep being a relative term)... so u lose control of the bike coz most of the weight is in the back. kinda like being partly riding your bike from behind. so balance the front and back is the key.... leaning forward on a descent is not balance. it's front heavy to begin w/ even if you are positioned in the middle, it's definitely front heavy if your head is above the handlebars. if you can do that then you must be going down something NOT steep enough.

so what is steep for you? kamloops steep? cypress steeps? watch some NSX movies...

Well, I have never considered or fancied myself as a downhiller (much less a "true" one). Nor have i openly claimed to be one in spite of the suggestive "DH mod" title. I don't even know whether the time will come when i can have the temerity to label myself as a downhiller.

By all accounts, I' m just a no nonsense trail rider who just wants to ride his bike hard. I can be, on occassion, quite aggressive too in my attempts at DH, mini-hucks and micro-jumps - that is, as much as my rudimentary skills (and my bike's limited technology) will allow.

Certainly i don't see anything wrong with taking some tips from a pro DH racer like redneb and applying them to my riding style to elevate my own incipient skills. I don't think that just because i'm not a "true downhiller" would mean that i have to limit my boundaries. I definitely can't ride like DH pros and specialists, maybe not yet, in all likelihood not ever ...but hell i would always want to push myself beyond the box. that's the only way to go. we all want to progress and 'evolve' right?

and because it's fun.

Hey man the basic tips work for me just fine. and no i wasn't doing the lean forward/centered attack on a steep slope. that'd be completely nuts! (i've read some bike 101 handouts too, i believe)

the trail i'm referring to (mt. makiling in laguna) is not technical nor is it steep but rather a winding, high speed, rocky, rutty fire road descent that is probably easy pickings for you or any downhiller for that matter.
i still get nervous of that descent many times, and i'm only too happy to just finish it's entirety safely.

the point is, applying the suggested technique by one mr.redneb, in my own experience, helped me to not only be faster and more in control but to have fun bombing down and conquering the trail

oh btw, ang steep descent for me basta mga 60 degrees pataas kinakabahan na ko. i'm probably too chicken sh*t to become a true blue DHiller, but who gives a flying huck?

;D

[jr]

vt2 said:

Agree peachy depende rin siguro ang technique sa gamit mo bike and amount of travel ng fork mo. Pagdh bike pwd ciguro nasa gitna ka and dumungaw sa harapan, pero kung xc bike magbobottom yung front fork sabay endo at isa pa iba ang geometry ng 2 bike kaya di ata pwd pareho technique gamitin kumbaga may basic moves lang na pwd iapply.

Well said.. Redneb base on a downhill rig due to lay back geometry of the bike compare to XC bike the geometry more forward.

[gulliver]

balance, balance...its all about balance

fast, slow, who really cares? only the rider does...and he should really care about finding that "balance of the moment"

stay loose...try standing high, try crouching low..experiment on your own and you will find it..others are better or faster at finding it than others

that's the beauty of riding a trail, it teaches you to relax and find the balance. watching a good trail rider, XC man or DH, always tickles my bones

[REDNEB]

Technical riding on descents dont actually require A lot of travel for the bike. As time has proven a lot of upcoming talents have been actually dominating the racing scene........like grupo nila paul sa baguio for example,

These kids are pretty darn good....u should see them!
Basic setup, Hardtail tapos 3-4" sa fork, basic lang talaga karga..............but these kids have been making waves(Time records) in the circuit, may 2 launion boys din na bumibils..........hehehehe

Anyway tama si gulli kung saan ka comfy dun ka, my version is just something na u myt wana try if your looking for some extra kick out of the speed.... ;D

Regardless of what its all about relaxing and balancing lang talaga.... ;D

Regarding sa importance ng travel ng suspension?

If u can adjust to your bikes rough motion during technical descents faster than it can dip-clip-n-twirl beneath you....you dont hav to worry bout havin not enuf suspension travel brother.....

Best time grotto 4th fastest time ako but i only had 5" sa harap pagdating ko pa finish line wala na gulong at interior ko rim na lang(Kaya sumikat fatboy).........who said dapat bighit lahat para madali? e lahat ng kalaban ko lahat grotto setup longtravel at puro hucker! e ako set-up ko trixxter na 6" at DJ na 5" pag na shoot ka sa hagdan kelangan bombahin mo yung tinidor para tumalbog palabas ulit sa butas(Hucking!)......lolz. ;D

Saka kapag nalipad sa pitik ng rampahan imbis na hatak kelangan tulak kasi sobra gaan pag hatak ka pa landing mo spinal column o pwet.......... ;D

Try nyo kayo bahal you be the judge of what you like....... ;D

[ygolote]

Redneb,

ok pala talaga kung tulak when launching. you get propelled of the object faster. kaso kailangan palang aralin yung landing. sumasayaw yun front wheel pag mali ang bagsak.

[sworksmike]

Naimagine ko lang bato singlaki ng makina ng jeep tapos 3-4 inches gamit mo travel nakadungaw ka pa sa harap parang eendo kasi talaga.