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Post by sabretooth on Sept 13, 2006 16:03:41 GMT 8
sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=cnnsi-thetruthisoutth&prov=cnnsi&type=lgnsThe truth is out there E.M. Swift, SI.com Is the truth finally catching up with Lance Armstrong, and is this one race the seven-time Tour de France champion may not be able to win? In Tuesday's New York Times, two of Armstrong's former U.S. Postal Service teammates admitted to having used EPO, an illegal performance-enhancing drug, at some point in 1999, the first year Armstrong won the Tour de France. While neither said they saw Armstrong do the same, the implication was that the drug use was common knowledge within the team. "The environment was certainly one of, to be accepted, you had to use doping products," said one of Armstrong's teammates, who requested anonymity, fearing reprisals from the notoriously vindictive Armstrong, who still wields considerable power in cycling. ADVERTISEMENT The other teammate was 39-year-old Frankie Andreu, a domestique who competed professionally for 12 years and was once Armstrong's close friend and roommate. He's now a motivational speaker and real-estate dealer in Dearborn, Mich. He said he only used EPO "for a couple of races" and was speaking out in hopes of cleaning up his tainted sport. More interesting -- to me, anyway -- was the testimony the Times uncovered that Andreu and his wife, Betsy, gave last fall during a lawsuit between Armstrong and SCA Promotions. The company had withheld a $5 million bonus it owed Armstrong after he won the '04 Tour because of doping allegations. The suit was eventually settled out of court in Armstrong's favor, but in their sworn testimony the Andreus said that when they visited Armstrong in the hospital after he'd been diagnosed with testicular cancer, they'd heard him tell his oncologists that he'd used "steroids, testosterone, cortisone, growth hormone and EPO." Their testimony was disputed by the doctor who administered Armstrong's chemotherapy at Indiana University Medical Center. In the same trial, Armstrong testified that his doctors never asked him if he'd used performance-enhancing drugs, and that he'd never used those substances. Which testimony is more credible? The Andreus' or Armstrong's? Ask yourself which party had the most to gain by lying. And why is that particular testimony significant? Because one of the possible side effects of prolonged steroid use is testicular cancer. It's impossible to prove, but if what the Andreus testified to under oath is true, than Lance Armstrong, role model and hero to so many cancer survivors, may very well have helped bring about his own cancer through his use of performance-enhancing drugs. Young athletes tempted to go down that road need to know if that's the case. None of what was reported in the Times is a shock to me. In 1999 I went to see Willy Voet, the Belgian trainer of the French-based Festina cycling team who was at the center of the '98 Tour de France scandal when he was arrested while crossing the border with literally hundreds of vials of EPO, growth hormones and testosterone. Voet ended up spending time in prison, and by the time he talked to me he was a man filled with remorse. He, too, was interested in helping to clean up his sport, and had written a book in French, the title of which translates as Chain Massacre: Revelations of 30 Years of Cheating. It made him an outcast in cycling but painstakingly chronicled the drug culture that only now is recognized as having infected the sport. In the 1970s, Voet said, the drug of choice was amphetamines. In the '80s it was anabolic steroids and cortisone. In the '90s it was growth hormones and EPO. He described leaning out a car window to give a shot to a cyclist in the middle of a race. He recalled hiding condoms of clean urine in the anus of cyclists to fool drug-testers. He spoke of dripping IV bags of saline solution into their bodies after a race to lower the ratio of red-blood-cell volume to total blood volume to avoid EPO detection in the event of a surprise drug test. Of the 500 cyclists he'd worked with over the years, only two had ever failed a drug test. "A racer who gets caught by doping control is dumb as a mule," Voet told me. And how many of those 500 cyclists he worked with did not take drugs to enhance their performance? "I can count them on two hands. Maybe two hands and two feet if I'm generous," Voet said. And where did the clean ones finish? I wondered. "The back of the pack," Voet said. Armstrong never finished at the back of the pack. Neither did his onetime teammate, Tyler Hamilton, the '04 Olympic champion who was suspended for two years for blood doping. Neither did another former teammate, Floyd Landis, who failed a doping test after winning this year's Tour de France. Neither did Italy's Ivan Basso, or Germany's Jan Ullrich, or Spain's Francisco Mancebo, who finished second, third and fourth to Armstrong in the '05 Tour, all of whom have been implicated in the Spanish doping investigation that rocked the start of this year's Tour. Each disputes the allegations. There's nothing new in any of this. Voet was telling the truth, but not enough people were listening. The sport of cycling is dirty, was dirty and will continue to be dirty until more athletes like Andreu and trainers like Voet come forward and break the code of silence. Remember those names. They're the heroes. Here's the thing about truth: It may take a while. It may take years. But truth's a tenacious battler. Eventually it will come out.
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Post by lucban on Sept 18, 2006 11:29:02 GMT 8
Doping,whether you like it or not, is and will be part of endurance sport like cycling.Getting away with it during a race like TDF is a part of racing.I'm a cyclist for 10 yrs and i consider Lance A. - the best whether he's positive of doping.Again its part of racing and most of them are doing IT.Most of the people who are making big deal about this issue are mostly loser and not a cyclist at all.
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Post by BrusKO on Sept 18, 2006 12:19:41 GMT 8
Doping,whether you like it or not, is and will be part of endurance sport like cycling.Getting away with it during a race like TDF is a part of racing.I'm a cyclist for 10 yrs and i consider Lance A. - the best whether he's positive of doping.Again its part of racing and most of them are doing IT.Most of the people who are making big deal about this issue are mostly loser and not a cyclist at all. Just because everyone's doing it, it doesn't mean it's right; or to say the least, legal as per TDF's policies. If it's true that he took dope, that just erased his streak in my book- and I believe I'm not alone in this. Also, I refuse to believe that doping is part of cycling. If it is, then it wouldn't be banned, would it?
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Post by anthrax76 on Sept 18, 2006 12:27:59 GMT 8
AFAIK, he took drugs while recovering from cancer, other than that, Lance is denying taking performance enhancing drugs.
in which case, doping is not good, and it will never be. and it should not be a part of the sport. how would you feel if the RP team took drugs just to compete and win in the international circuit?
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Post by janix on Sept 18, 2006 13:14:16 GMT 8
Doping,whether you like it or not, is and will be part of endurance sport like cycling.Getting away with it during a race like TDF is a part of racing.I'm a cyclist for 10 yrs and i consider Lance A. - the best whether he's positive of doping.Again its part of racing and most of them are doing IT.Most of the people who are making big deal about this issue are mostly loser and not a cyclist at all. so it would be ok for you if you joined a race and you lost because you're opponent was doping?
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Post by lucban on Sept 19, 2006 9:21:15 GMT 8
Doping,whether you like it or not, is and will be part of endurance sport like cycling.Getting away with it during a race like TDF is a part of racing.I'm a cyclist for 10 yrs and i consider Lance A. - the best whether he's positive of doping.Again its part of racing and most of them are doing IT.Most of the people who are making big deal about this issue are mostly loser and not a cyclist at all. so it would be ok for you if you joined a race and you lost because you're opponent was doping? Mga brad. I have the same reaction to my comment before but thats the way it is right now.I cyclist still need the skill that they need to develop thru a lot of training and the doping part is just a small part of the overall performance during a race. Usually doping will serve as the booster during the race.Most of the doping are use on the first and last 5 to 10 miles of the race as a booster.Right now a lot of cyclist are using caffeine thru coffee or high caffeine energy drink like Redbull because they are still legal but I've heard that they are thinking of banning it in the future.Its bad but thats the way it is.Just do it safe and the right way.
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Post by woofers on Sept 19, 2006 12:52:10 GMT 8
Doping,whether you like it or not, is and will be part of endurance sport like cycling. Not just cycling and endurance sports -- any sport with money, sponsors, or pride on the line will have athletes that are willing to take performance enhancing drugs.
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Post by Ben Dover on Sept 19, 2006 13:19:03 GMT 8
safe and right way of doping...hmm...interesting...i have few questions though.
why is it then still illegal to use EPO? is it still a valid question or now just another really stupid question?
what do you think is the essence of competing in a cycling race or any other sports?
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Post by janix on Sept 19, 2006 17:10:10 GMT 8
why is it then still illegal to use EPO? is it still a valid question or now just another really stupid question? what do you think is the essence of competing in a cycling race or any other sports? i've read somewhere, i don't know where... i don't know how to explain... i forgot the exact words... but it goes something like this... all sports, may it be indoor/outdoor, man power or motor... or horse power, it's a competition to test one's skill and strength... now, if someone would dope to win, then that's just plain unfair to those who trained hard to win. gets niyo? so if everyone would be doping, then it's a competition more of the drugs than the strenght and skill of the athlete. IMO, if you're doping, you're the incompetent one, you're the lazy one, you're the weakest link, you're weak, you're a plain loser, you're a cheater... you don't have the strength to win that's why you dope, you loser! mwehehehhe ;D now if someone is under medication, and that medication may contain steriods or any performance enhancing drugs, i think it's up to the organizer what to do... but for me, don't let him/her play... she's under medication.
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Post by kristiansen on Sept 19, 2006 18:58:44 GMT 8
no drugs, period.pede siguro one race for the clean ones and another race for those "enhanced" version.in tagalog: "lahat ng mga kargado,dito ang starting line". ;D just my 2 cents po......
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Post by allegra on Sept 19, 2006 21:18:21 GMT 8
safe and right way of doping...hmm...interesting...i have few questions though. why is it then still illegal to use EPO? is it still a valid question or now just another really stupid question? what do you think is the essence of competing in a cycling race or any other sports? too lazy to look up essence in the dicstionary but I would take illegal substances too if I'd be given a million $ sports contract there's mucho dinero in winning, not just pride sportsmanship doesnt buy a ferrari Hard to imagine how much pressure these athletes have to win Sa case ni Lance , everybody loves a hero but people love to see a fallen hero even more.
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Post by jr on Sept 19, 2006 22:52:58 GMT 8
too lazy to look up essence in the dicstionary but I would take illegal substances too if I'd be given a million $ sports contract there's mucho dinero in winning, not just pride sportsmanship doesnt buy a ferrari Hard to imagine how much pressure these athletes have to win Sa case ni Lance , everybody loves a hero but people love to see a fallen hero even more. good point...the French really want Lance to go down the drain. They tried everything but so far no prove he used the drug during TDF races.
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Post by lucban on Sept 20, 2006 9:44:25 GMT 8
good point...the French really want Lance to go down the drain. They tried everything but so far no prove he used the drug during TDF races. I agree with you brad.There's a lot of French who are so upset because for the past 8 yrs, Americans(Lance A. for 7yrs and Landis this yr) dominated the tour.So they do all possible things to put them down.One of them is thru doping allegation. :)Lance A. rule!!!
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Post by anthrax76 on Sept 20, 2006 9:59:30 GMT 8
funny thing is, the french has all year to train in their native land, americans and other teams has to visit france and train there. which gets you thinking.........are the americans really strong? is it the team? is it the equipment? is it the dope?
so far the dope issue is still unproven......
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Post by Ben Dover on Sept 20, 2006 10:36:02 GMT 8
i liken it to a high stake exam that you find a lot is cheating...hey, no need to offer me a million dollars...its probably enough reason for me to go with the flow...at the end of the day i'd be probably satisfied na i managed to go head to head with the @ssholes...never giving them a millimeter of an edge over me...but at the same time you know at the back of your mind there were also guys there who did not succumb to the temptation of cheating...results came out and you're the topnotcher...happy? maybe..depends on type of person i am...do i think i deserve it? maybe, i did what was necessary given the situation and came out as winner..maybe not, coz i know someone was there who studied well, came in prepared, did everything he cud without cheating but came short of my score...but then again depende sa pagkatao ko. what if we can do something to stop all the cheating..mas preferred mo ba parin ang ganito? impossible ba yan?..o alam mo talagang kulang ka talaga kaya ka mandaraya. essence is the same as...core, heart, real meaning, soul, fundamental nature..thats according to thesaurus of my winword ...my personal belief is that any deviation from the true essence of competition is bad and a form of corruption...if what you want is only fame and wealth go make a business of your own that will give you that or run for senator and leave those who deserve it savor yung pinaghiran nila...the success and accolades that's truly theirs...otherwise train. my 5 cents
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Post by BrusKO on Sept 20, 2006 11:06:54 GMT 8
i liken it to a high stake exam that you find a lot is cheating...hey, no need to offer me a million dollars...its probably enough reason for me to go with the flow...at the end of the day i'd be probably satisfied na i managed to go head to head with the @ssholes...never giving them a millimeter of an edge over me...but at the same time you know at the back of your mind there were also guys there who did not succumb to the temptation of cheating...results came out and you're the topnotcher...happy? maybe..depends on type of person i am...do i think i deserve it? maybe, i did what was necessary given the situation and came out as winner..maybe not, coz i know someone was there who studied well, came in prepared, did everything he cud without cheating but came short of my score...but then again depende sa pagkatao ko. what if we can do something to stop all the cheating..mas preferred mo ba parin ang ganito? impossible ba yan?..o alam mo talagang kulang ka talaga kaya ka mandaraya. essence is the same as...core, heart, real meaning, soul, fundamental nature..thats according to thesaurus of my winword ...my personal belief is that any deviation from the true essence of competition is bad and a form of corruption...if what you want is only fame and wealth go make a business of your own that will give you that or run for senator and leave those who deserve it savor yung pinaghiran nila...the success and accolades that's truly theirs...otherwise train. my 5 cents Madame President, I nominate Tolits for Congressman!!!! Pards, naiyak ako dun ah... ;D
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Post by allegra on Sept 20, 2006 11:20:38 GMT 8
i liken it to a high stake exam that you find a lot is cheating...hey, no need to offer me a million dollars...its probably enough reason for me to go with the flow...at the end of the day i'd be probably satisfied na i managed to go head to head with the @ssholes...never giving them a millimeter of an edge over me...but at the same time you know at the back of your mind there were also guys there who did not succumb to the temptation of cheating...results came out and you're the topnotcher...happy? maybe..depends on type of person i am...do i think i deserve it? maybe, i did what was necessary given the situation and came out as winner..maybe not, coz i know someone was there who studied well, came in prepared, did everything he cud without cheating but came short of my score...but then again depende sa pagkatao ko. what if we can do something to stop all the cheating..mas preferred mo ba parin ang ganito? impossible ba yan?..o alam mo talagang kulang ka talaga kaya ka mandaraya. essence is the same as...core, heart, real meaning, soul, fundamental nature..thats according to thesaurus of my winword ...my personal belief is that any deviation from the true essence of competition is bad and a form of corruption...if what you want is only fame and wealth go make a business of your own that will give you that or run for senator and leave those who deserve it savor yung pinaghiran nila...the success and accolades that's truly theirs...otherwise train. my 5 cents Beautifully stated Fafa and in a perfect world , dapat talaga ganyan But in reality, we have mothers who flush their babies down the toilet , so winning by cheating will not be difficult for some to do especially if the rewards are fame and fortune I would love to know ano laman ng utak nila when they are on the hunt for the win. What makes them do what they do When I was still competing sa IPSC , I had seen what pressure to win can do. It can ruin friendships, make you spend a lot of money, provoke a panic attack ( hehe my fave ) , lalo na cheat I've seen combat proven soldiers nanginginig sa takot during big matches Why cheat? You want to stack the deck in your favor. Lahat ng advantages hahanapin mo , and this will ultimately lead you to cheating. The temptation and not to mention the rewards are too.....great Thats why the amateurs are sometimes the only pure sport Wala pera kasi , all pride lang
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Post by BrusKO on Sept 20, 2006 11:40:10 GMT 8
... or all heart!
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Post by jr on Sept 20, 2006 11:40:35 GMT 8
funny thing is, the french has all year to train in their native land, americans and other teams has to visit france and train there. which gets you thinking.........are the americans really strong? is it the team? is it the equipment? is it the dope? so far the dope issue is still unproven...... Is the heart, dedication and determination..Ullrich was a very strong rider but he doesnt have that.
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Post by jr on Sept 20, 2006 11:49:26 GMT 8
i liken it to a high stake exam that you find a lot is cheating...hey, no need to offer me a million dollars...its probably enough reason for me to go with the flow...at the end of the day i'd be probably satisfied na i managed to go head to head with the @ssholes...never giving them a millimeter of an edge over me...but at the same time you know at the back of your mind there were also guys there who did not succumb to the temptation of cheating...results came out and you're the topnotcher...happy? maybe..depends on type of person i am...do i think i deserve it? maybe, i did what was necessary given the situation and came out as winner..maybe not, coz i know someone was there who studied well, came in prepared, did everything he cud without cheating but came short of my score...but then again depende sa pagkatao ko. what if we can do something to stop all the cheating..mas preferred mo ba parin ang ganito? impossible ba yan?..o alam mo talagang kulang ka talaga kaya ka mandaraya. essence is the same as...core, heart, real meaning, soul, fundamental nature..thats according to thesaurus of my winword ...my personal belief is that any deviation from the true essence of competition is bad and a form of corruption...if what you want is only fame and wealth go make a business of your own that will give you that or run for senator and leave those who deserve it savor yung pinaghiran nila...the success and accolades that's truly theirs...otherwise train. my 5 cents I wanna cry..nice one Tolits.
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Post by sabretooth on Sept 20, 2006 11:57:04 GMT 8
I heard during the ToF that Lance was almost kicked out of france because he possessed substances that are illegal in France--shampoo, bathsoap, and toothpaste! hehe. Dang Frenchies! hehe. joke lang joke lang...
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Post by ultegra on Sept 20, 2006 13:26:25 GMT 8
And let's nor forget... Lance probably worked the hardest to get where he is! His teammates have often testified he trains twice as long and as hard as they do. He once did the most difficult climb of the TdF twice in a day on a scouting ride just so he knew exactly how to plan his actual ride. Also, he's probably one of the most-tested athlete bar none... random tests throughout the year, before and after races... none has been proven. (I believe his urine has been frozen for future testing, in case the French officials develop a better testing method in the coming years.
I believe he didn't dope... but if he did, I'd still think he is a great cyclist. Proven dopers cannot keep up with him. Ergo, all things beeing equal, he is still a notch above all of them, dopers or clean riders!
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Post by anthrax76 on Sept 20, 2006 14:06:01 GMT 8
i'm just wondering, if Eddy Merckx lived today, would he be subjected to the same doping allegations as Lance?
i mean he's winning races left and right, Lance is concentrated on the TOF
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Post by kristiansen on Sept 20, 2006 16:32:30 GMT 8
just curious guys,anybody have idea how strong would those banned substances would make you ride?like,will it make you 50-100% stronger than you would normally do?
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Post by BrusKO on Sept 20, 2006 16:38:30 GMT 8
... I believe he didn't dope... but if he did, I'd still think he is a great cyclist. Proven dopers cannot keep up with him. Ergo, all things beeing equal, he is still a notch above all of them, dopers or clean riders! IF he did take dope, how do we know he didn't take twice as much as the other doping cyclists? ;D
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Post by woofers on Sept 20, 2006 17:05:36 GMT 8
just curious guys,anybody have idea how strong would those banned substances would make you ride?like,will it make you 50-100% stronger than you would normally do? No. The performance improvements are small, but enough to make a difference. Remember, the smallest winning margin in the TdF GC was 8 seconds (Lemond over Fignon) and the biggest ever was 28 minutes (Coppi over Ockers). And this is over 3600km. In short, performance enhancing drugs won't turn a domestique into a TdF winner.
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Post by woofers on Sept 20, 2006 17:07:25 GMT 8
i'm just wondering, if Eddy Merckx lived today, would he be subjected to the same doping allegations as Lance? Er, Eddy Merckx is still alive. ;D
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Post by kristiansen on Sept 20, 2006 18:21:12 GMT 8
thanks woofers.i'll just stick with those powergels ;D just curious guys,anybody have idea how strong would those banned substances would make you ride?like,will it make you 50-100% stronger than you would normally do? No. The performance improvements are small, but enough to make a difference. Remember, the smallest winning margin in the TdF GC was 8 seconds (Lemond over Fignon) and the biggest ever was 28 minutes (Coppi over Ockers). And this is over 3600km. In short, performance enhancing drugs won't turn a domestique into a TdF winner.
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Post by allegra on Sept 21, 2006 0:58:24 GMT 8
I hope carabeef doesnt get banned it's amuscle builder
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Post by bao on Sept 21, 2006 9:31:01 GMT 8
funny thing is, the french has all year to train in their native land, americans and other teams has to visit france and train there. which gets you thinking.........are the americans really strong? is it the team? is it the equipment? is it the dope? so far the dope issue is still unproven...... so far, only three americans won the TDF (Lemond, Lance & Landis). Levi will be the next american to watch now that he's with the Discovery team and Landis is out for at least two years
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