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Post by cobym on Apr 11, 2005 21:25:00 GMT 8
I'm planning to upgrade my current budget hardtail, just in case I win the lotto or get a fat early bonus. Initially, I was quite set on getting a full suspension rig. Lately, however, I'm starting to think that a good light hardtail would be better. I dont do jumps or crazy downhill or freeride. xc or aggressive xc would be my classification. Plus, I have a thudbuster. What do you guys and gals think? I've compiled some pros and cons for ht and fs. Your additions and comments on them would be great in helping out a fellow biker. HT pros - 1)lighter, 2) little or no maintenance, 3) pedals efficiently, 4) cheaper HT cons - 1) harsher ride, 2) just not as fun as an fs descending, 3) no/less bling factor. FS pros - 1) faster, easier and more fun descending, 2) with stable platform shocks, may pedal efficiently also, 3) bling bling. FS cons - 1) price price price, 2) more moving parts=more maintenance= more chances of mechanical failure.
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Post by vertigo on Apr 12, 2005 2:22:25 GMT 8
sigh who wouldn't want a full suspension... if only i could afford one life would've been easier ;D
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marvs
Free Rider
My angel....
Posts: 351
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Post by marvs on Apr 12, 2005 6:51:06 GMT 8
It really depends on your intended use and if you can afford it. If you're going to buy a full suspension frame, it better be a good one. As they say, a good HT is still better than a poor FS frame. If you ride xc and you don't bomb through the trail and pedal like crazy until you are about to pass out, stick to the HT. Just upgrade your HT with better components to add more bling. I have a couple of buddies who can make guys on Blurs, NRS's, etc. eat their dust while riding sub 10k HT's. Sayang lang bike nila. But if you can afford it, then why not? The bike is just as good as it's rider... that means my bike sucks.
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Post by staind on Apr 12, 2005 7:21:11 GMT 8
agree with marvs. personally, am starting to appreciate FS bikes. been a HT lover for a long time. recently took the plunge and bought an FS. 1st ride, i hated it. what a waste of time and money! but after my 2nd ride (a week after -- i only ride on weekends), i'm starting to really appreciate and love full squishies! my aging body's thanking me for it really as i literally rode through a freshly plowed dry rice field sitting down! it took everything! this has a downside though since it'll rob u of the technical maneuvers and learning curve a HT will give u... thus it tends to get boring. for me though, am starting to like the comfortness after the ride. hopefully, my 3rd ride would be enjoyable as well. my 2 sentimos
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Post by alien_scream on Apr 12, 2005 8:12:10 GMT 8
i use a hartail bike (urban) and full suspension bike (freeride)!!!!! and the diference is i think is the suspension of the bike para kang nakasakay sa tsikot na di mo rararambaman yung lubak..... but as they say even in the north shore iba parin anf hardtail!!!!!!!!
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Post by bernie on Apr 12, 2005 11:42:06 GMT 8
hehehehehhehe
My reason why I like HT is the pedalling efficiency. At my heavy 250 lbs frame, I am always experiencing GHOST SHIFT IN Full Suspension Bike. ( maybe this is not your problem )
If most of the time your in the road, use HT but if you love trails, a good FS bike is recommended. They have different jobs actually heheheh
that is why serious MTB peeps have 2 or more bikes.
As they have said
WE CANNOT COMPARE APPLES FROM ORANGES.
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Post by staind on Apr 12, 2005 12:39:02 GMT 8
At my heavy 250 lbs frame, I am always experiencing GHOST SHIFT IN Full Suspension Bike. ( maybe this is not your problem ) brad, with the advent of smart suspension designs (4-bar linkages, etc.) and hi-tech shocks (spv, pro-pedal, etc.), ghost shifting in FS bikes are a thing of the past. just my 2 centavos.
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Post by GALVinChie on Apr 12, 2005 14:00:06 GMT 8
If you're fond of uphills, it's a HT (with your TD) or an Epic. Nothing beats them both on efficiency. Further, for short rides like, around U. P. maybe, guwapo ka pa rin with a HT. Kung aggressive XC, I think they still use HT for that kind of Mt.Biking discipline. Besides, instinctively, you stand up naman when you get nasty di'ba? I don't know if it's safe to say na ang mga FS will be the standard na for Mt.Biking in the future. But rest assured, if that day comes, magiging mura na ang mga yan. Tama ba? PERO, KAPAG TUMAMA KA NG LOTTO, ANO PA ANG HINIHINTAY MO. THERE'S NO MORE POINT COMPARING KUNG ALIN ANG PIPILIIN MO!!!!! ;D GO RIDE!!!!!! GO MTBIKING!!!!!! ;D
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Post by puregutz on Apr 12, 2005 14:39:10 GMT 8
I should also agree with marvs: As they say, a good HT is still better than a poor FS frame. Upgrading to another hardtail wouldn't make any difference. Perhaps a little prestige... If you have the money, get a good FS frame. It will definitely improve your riding... Keep the old HT frame. You'll probably be able to build a new bike after a year or 2 from upgrades. Trust me... Its a virus that spreads quietly but quickly...
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marvs
Free Rider
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Posts: 351
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Post by marvs on Apr 13, 2005 3:09:33 GMT 8
I have a pretty good HT and am spec'ing it to be on the aggressive side than an XC race rig.
I like pedalling hard and fast on the trail (one of my objectives in biking is cardio). It's really the best on flats and inclines but I get left behind when bombing descents and rough terrain (most of my riding buddies have FS bikes). I try to catch up but I get bounced around by the terrain to the point that I almost get tossed off my bike unlike them just flowing through it. I also get a bit jarred but I'm used to it.
As much as I want to upgrade to an FS bike, I just can't afford it at this time. Will just have to wait maybe next year when '04-'05 frames would be cheaper (can anybody say Dawg?) or somebody with an upgrade virus sells a Heckler in the trade forums. I'll just upgrade my current spec so that my potential new frame would have a equally good home. ;D
By the way when you get a new frame, look for the newer stable platform ones for increased pedalling efficiency (Fox Propedal, Manitou Swinger SPV, Romic, Curnutt, 5th Element). These are found in some of the '04 and most of the '05 frames. The cheapest one so far is the Kona Kikapu with the Fox Float Propedal. (Domz is selling it on the Trade forum).
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Post by cobym on Apr 13, 2005 6:28:43 GMT 8
Thanks for the tips guys. However, just a question to you FS guys. What kind of maintenance do you do to your linkages and pivots? How often do you have to take them apart and lube? Hassle ba? The reason I ask this is because on my last trail ride I was with a guy on a Norco VPS, and his FS was squeaking like mad. It came to a point that we knew he was still riding behind us if we could still hear the squeaking. Guy says he forgot to lube it the day before. The other FS in our group (Giant NRS), stayed quiet the whole time. I also heard word that Jamis Dakars also need extra TLC to avoid squeaking joints.
I must admit, this is what is making me really think twice about a FS. While I like tinkering with my bike, servicing a pivot is kinda out of my league, and something I'd prefer not to worry about.
What say you?
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marvs
Free Rider
My angel....
Posts: 351
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Post by marvs on Apr 13, 2005 7:58:30 GMT 8
If your worrying about the joints and pivots then get a Heckler, SC Superlight or any other single pivot frame. It only has two bearings and as the name suggests, one pivot point. Just pick one with a stable platform rear shock because the single pivot is the first generation of full suspension frames and has the biggest tendency for pedal induced bob without the proper shock and setting.
4 bar frames has like the NRS, Dakar has 4 joints of bearings and bushings that needs to be lubed and torqued properly once in a while for best performance.
There's a KHS XC504 in the trade forums. Not stable platform though but it will do. Just upgrade in the future.
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Post by Gerald on Apr 13, 2005 8:06:31 GMT 8
at un khs na binebenta dun ay sakin! ;D have a look po!
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Post by cobym on Apr 13, 2005 11:11:14 GMT 8
Gerald: Yup. saw it. Kaya lang small size yata sya. Pwede ba sa akin yan at 5'8"?
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Post by Gerald on Apr 13, 2005 11:17:42 GMT 8
hmm. not sure. baka kelangan mo ng mas mahabang stem.120mm
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Post by hotchili on Apr 13, 2005 17:53:49 GMT 8
cobym, if i may add, not all hardtails are the same. some are better at absorbing shock than others...like those made of titanium....or even scandium. very different from say, an M4 stumpy. point is, there are some very, very good hardtails out there. FS is great too, with riding comfort being one of the main benefits. some FS bikes actually climb better than a hardtail! both platforms are great...so if you have the budget, get one of each
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Post by jr on Apr 13, 2005 20:36:29 GMT 8
I have both bikes. Hard tail still the best bike for climbing and less maintenance but the draw back even my hard tail is carbon fiber (trek 9.8) and absorb vibration still very tuff going down on a rocky, rutty and technical trails. I always pick and choose my way FS XC with 3 inches of travel is more aggressive and all around bike. Most of these bikes out there have rear lock out to accommodate for climbing. Its true more maintenance especially on shock setting but the comfort on the trail using FS cannot be replaced. By the way, the squeaking sound from the linkage probably cause by water built up inside the bearing. This happen during cleaning with high pressure water. What you can do before buying the bike do a list what riding condition you do, like trail condition, your buddies riding style then you decide what bike to buy. For my experienced. My trek 9.8 and intense 5.5 are not being use for the last 6 months, since I have my Trek fuel 100 with 3 inches of travel (both front and rear) with front and rear lockout. This bike is all around bike with comfort on my back and the trail conditions were doing. Or be like most of us here with multiple bikes;D ;D. Buy a hard tail for easy trail and FS for more aggressive ride. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by warlock^_^ on Apr 14, 2005 6:30:00 GMT 8
I have a couple of buddies who can make guys on Blurs, NRS's, etc. eat their dust while riding sub 10k HT's. Sayang lang bike nila. But if you can afford it, then why not? *cough* *cough* Oh well! I have lots of buddies who rides FS who can dust guys riding HTs ;D Anyway, its the rider not the bike. Everyone started out with a hardtail, for my case I went thru a series of HTs in my riding years. Eventually took the plunge and bought myself a FS...man this babies are different. You can ride longer, feel better after every ride. If you have the money to buy one, get it! you'll be kicking yourself if let you it pass.
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Post by hotchili on Apr 14, 2005 7:23:52 GMT 8
get 2 equally experienced riders..put one on a sub 10kg hardtail and one on at least a 4" travel FS. run them down a technical loop....note technical, and not smooth XC-race type of track (jeez). my buck goes to the FS rider to finish first ;D
on a trail, the hardtail rider will need to work harder at finding the SMOOTHEST line through terrain to get from point A to point B fast. the FS rider will just roll over things.
point? if you simply enjoy doing a trail ride with friends, it doesn't matter which platform you use! but if you race, and its not a smooth course, you should probably decide whether you want to rattle your brain and your butt off your back....or let the suspension at both ends do most of the work.
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Post by tigacainta on Apr 14, 2005 7:42:59 GMT 8
Bottomline here is: the Budget really Decides .........More Money gets Quality . Lastly : Make sure you didn't waste Money by not riding enough w/ ur upgraded rig.......that's simple....
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marvs
Free Rider
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Posts: 351
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Post by marvs on Apr 14, 2005 7:44:38 GMT 8
Well, the bike is just as good as it's rider. But give a good rider a great bike, that's a different story.
The bottom line is how much your willing to spend on it. There are some riders na pogi points lang habol kahit pasyal lang ang pace.
I was pondering on that before and here are factors on my decision of sticking to a HT:
1. Budget - the great delimiter! 2. Intended Purpose - Pasyal XC, agressive, freeride, DH 3. who do you ride with? - You get a freeride FS and all your buddies have HTs. Pogi points won't help when your last at every climb. It is also true the other way around.
Actually with the technology available, there are already great FS bikes that really beats out or as good as HTs in all aspects except weight. The problem is, these frames are in the top budget bracket. There are cheaper ones but it has it's disadvantages. Good thing for new technology on shocks in which the single pivot bikes are now more efficient. So I won't get an FS unless it's a good one and would suit my needs.
I was looking into some budget friendly FS bikes but I saw some disadvantages. Good ones are still pricey but their going down. I just decided to get the best HT for my purpose, use it as an outlet for my upgrade virus. When it is spec'd good enough and better frames at the budget range comes out, then that's when I buy an FS frame.
2003, only a few bikes were spec'd with stable platform frames (VPP) and shocks. (ex. Giant VT with swinger air, Sp Epic, Spider and Blur). Single pivot SC's like Heckler and Bullit became popular due to the 5th element.
2004, More frames are now spec'd with these shocks.
2005, even low end FS frames now have fox propedal. Giant comes out with Maestro (way cheaper VPP)
2006, Hoping that efficient '05 frames are cheaper. Then it's my turn to get a good FS frame.
Patience is the key.
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Post by donbautist on Apr 14, 2005 8:56:16 GMT 8
get a hardtail and get a FS bike.....that should solve our problem. ;D
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Post by cobym on Apr 14, 2005 10:44:53 GMT 8
Yep, two bikes would do the trick. That gets me thinking of buying an FS and "giving" my current HT to my wife to get her into riding, and also so she won't skin me alive for spending on another (even more expensive) bike. Hehehe.
As for comfort, I have a thuddy. Best bike component for an HT in my opinion. It saves my butt (literally). At least I have a modicum of comfort on the trail. But it doesnt prevent the bike from getting bounced all over. You still need to pick your line carefully.
Anyway, the way this forum (and my budget) is developing, I think I will first upgrade my current HT, and ride it till I've saved up serious cash for a Heckler, or Enduro, or a Blur, or a Yeti 5.75, or an Intense Spyder, or a Reign, or a Titus Motolite, or an Ellsworth Moment or .... (haaaay sarap mangarap).
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Post by rob on Apr 21, 2005 14:41:49 GMT 8
Way to go Cobym!! Get two bikes. hehe Seriously, that really depends on the intended use. If you do not really go Freeriding as you mentioned a HT can be a nice trail/ agressve XC bike if you equipt it with nice components, but again a nice FS bike with SPV would always be welcome. By the way I also have the same dilema.
Ride Safely brad!
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Post by cobym on Apr 21, 2005 20:18:46 GMT 8
Ok. so far I stuck to teh plan of upgrading my HT to satisfaction. Got a new frame - Spez Stumpy. am in the market for better disc brakes. prob Avid BB7 or Juicy's, budget permitting.
BTW, I was in sta rosa today and I tried out my fellow rider's Trek Fuel. Ang sarap. It was light, pedalled really well and just felt darn good. but I must say the stumpy was faster on the not so rough portions and on the climbs. I could really feel the difference of the lighter and oh so stiff frame. This thing was built for one thing - speed on light xc courses. But when it got really gnarly-fast - like the "sungkaan" pot holes in the Pineapple trail in sta rosa (for those not familiar, its really like going through a big sungkaan. or hard plowed earth[up down up down. ) The HT's really jackknifed here and there. While the trek and the other full susp bikes with us, could get away with more.
Sigh... I guess I will really eventually get a full susp. later on.
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Post by the D. on Apr 22, 2005 1:45:42 GMT 8
another point is, the transition. Riding a full suspenion bike is totally different. you'll have to give it more time to getting use to. Atleast in my case. I do dirt jumps and DH. I find it hard to throw a full suspension bike on a dirt jump, you'll have to study the rig's compression and rebound adjustments. the timing of the launch and how to lift it smoothly. i crashed a few times but eventually pull it off. but it's a long transition, being a hardtail rider for such a long time. Actually, Hardtails are very effecient. you can do almost everything on a hardtail. Ely Zapanta races DH wiith a XCLR8r, before it was stolen. Aky,Nuy,Mark and bryan of Baguio also competes on a hardtail. Russ Morrel droped his chromoly Balfa Minute-man ( a hardtail ) on a 30 ft drop. my point is, regardless of you're discipline, XC, DJ, DH, Freeride. It all boils down to one. it's how you ride it. plus it's cheaper a good FS will cost you, pag-isipan mabuti. do not settle for the second best.
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Post by gulliver on Apr 22, 2005 19:43:32 GMT 8
Ok. so far I stuck to teh plan of upgrading my HT to satisfaction. Got a new frame - Spez Stumpy. am in the market for better disc brakes. prob Avid BB7 or Juicy's, budget permitting. BTW, I was in sta rosa today and I tried out my fellow rider's Trek Fuel. Ang sarap. It was light, pedalled really well and just felt darn good. but I must say the stumpy was faster on the not so rough portions and on the climbs. I could really feel the difference of the lighter and oh so stiff frame. This thing was built for one thing - speed on light xc courses. But when it got really gnarly-fast - like the "sungkaan" pot holes in the Pineapple trail in sta rosa (for those not familiar, its really like going through a big sungkaan. or hard plowed earth[up down up down. ) The HT's really jackknifed here and there. While the trek and the other full susp bikes with us, could get away with more. Sigh... I guess I will really eventually get a full susp. later on. cobym, what you described is spot-on....like they say, you really have to work harder on a hardtail. FS bikers can get away with more and with almost half the effort. but a light hardtail is so easy to use, to maintain, to carry (for those hike-a-bikes), that just having one is like a reality check. if and when you do get your FS, you'll appreciate the lessons the hardtail will teach you...and continue to teach you. now you know why they say hardtail riders are perhaps the fittest mt bikers...(but in my case, i need to lose more weight!)
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Post by cobym on Apr 22, 2005 19:59:52 GMT 8
Hello Mr. Gulliver! Your former frame is living up to what I thought it would be. and it looks great too...
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Post by groovingfungus on Mar 2, 2006 11:18:07 GMT 8
Just my 2 cents......
I've owned an Ellsworth Moment for about two years but recently bought a Whyte 19 Hardtail from a friend, (he was selling it at a good price)
Since I've had the Whyte I find myself riding the hardtail all the time, and reckon it's a better overall riding experience. I find myself enjoying my rides a whole lot more.
I love the Moment, its an amazing bike that has made me a better rider. I can clean stuff on it that makes me go "wow" even to myself. It's a no fuss, totally competent and inspiring bike
However, since getting the hardtail I've realized what an un-involving ride the Ellsworth is. On the Whyte I have to be more precise, think about my lines and move around the bike a lot more. It feels a lot faster on the downs, and it actually is a lot faster on the climbs. I find I can be more aggressive with less risk and exposure than when I'm on the Moment.
The hard tail ride is pretty comfortable (a good saddle is important) but there is a kick in the tail on technical sections. However, as long as I remember to stay connected to the back end instead of just barreling over stuff as I do on the Moment it's fine.
As I say, I love the Moment, and there's still things I won't ride on the Whyte that I don't think twice about on the Ellsworth, big drops, jumps and A lines (instead of gay lines)
But though the stuff I do ride on the hardtail is less hardcore, it is so much more engaging. It's like the Moment sometimes rides me and I'm just hanging on, where as I have to actually ride the Whyte. I have to think about what I'm doing. It's like I,'m riding IN the bike, not ON it.
Basically, I'm a convert to the hardtail and though still praise all the neat stuff that full suss lets you do. I reckon hardtails are more involving and make you a better all round rider.
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hance
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Post by hance on Mar 2, 2006 12:56:34 GMT 8
AMEN to that...
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