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helpSS
May 25, 2008 17:47:55 GMT 8
Post by bleachstreak on May 25, 2008 17:47:55 GMT 8
hello.. just want to ask for suggestions.. it has been the second time this problem happened so i would like to know ur insights about this... it seems my frame is flexing too much whenever i try to aggressively swing the pedals going up a climb from a fast downhill portion of any trail.. imagine going downhill fast to get better speed for a climb... at the start or a few pedals on the climb my chain falls off and its either i crash to the trail or god knows what will happen cause im too fast trying to get enough speed for the climb... the tension of the chain looks pretty ok when i check it before a ride... it seems the frame flexes too much which causes the chain to fall off upon impact probably... is this normal? what can I do to fix this? thanks! i have uploaded a picture to show the chain tension... is there anything else i need to do to stop this annoying problem?
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helpSS
May 25, 2008 18:06:48 GMT 8
Post by dirtyjane on May 25, 2008 18:06:48 GMT 8
nice voodoo! nice cranks too!have you checked your chainline? the rear cog n the chainring should align when you sight it from the back. this could be your problem. in my opinion frame flex will not greatly affect the chain that it forces it to fall. I may be wrong? bke naman may crack un frame. heheheh kidding. is that a singlespeed hub or a regular 9spd hub? where does the chain fall off, in the front or the rear? what chain are you using? have many questions. sorry, bka compatibility issue ksi.
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helpSS
May 25, 2008 19:33:19 GMT 8
Post by king on May 25, 2008 19:33:19 GMT 8
your rear cog and chainring are most likely not aligned, although it would have to be really misaligned to fall of considering your using a non-ramped cog & chainring.
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helpSS
May 25, 2008 19:55:02 GMT 8
Post by dirtyjane on May 25, 2008 19:55:02 GMT 8
if its aligned when you check the cog and rings and the chain still falls off you might want to consider puting a chainguide sa cogs and sa chainrings. its like putting 2 bashguards sa chainring 1 inside 1 outside to guide the chain. you can use 2 cds for the cogs. just reshape them to fit the cogs. try to ask master agu, for sure he will have a solution for your problem. =)
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helpSS
May 25, 2008 21:33:38 GMT 8
Post by bleachstreak on May 25, 2008 21:33:38 GMT 8
thanks peeps.. ill have a good look at the alignment thingy when i get the bike back from the bikeshop... ill wait for master agu's advice as well.. thanks king and dirtyjane!
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helpSS
May 25, 2008 23:03:49 GMT 8
Post by hyperion on May 25, 2008 23:03:49 GMT 8
I suspect the problem is also the chainline. A few mm of misalignment (like an interchanged proper position of the smallest spacer) would be enough to derail the chain. Another possible cause is the chain maybe a little too short and too tight. While a taut lookin chain (like yours) looks nice - a slight slack is actually desirable: it is easier to pedal and less stressful on the chains and chainrings especially for climbs.
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helpSS
May 25, 2008 23:31:42 GMT 8
Post by bleachstreak on May 25, 2008 23:31:42 GMT 8
hyperion would a slackier chainbe better on this situation? well i believe i need to start off with a well aligned cog:chainring... i do see the point on stressing the chains on climbs but wouldnt be a slackier chain be more prone on being derailed?
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helpSS
May 25, 2008 23:45:25 GMT 8
Post by 32by18 on May 25, 2008 23:45:25 GMT 8
Hi JB. Sorry for the late reply - was out of town this weekend!
With regards to your chain derailing, the guys have already given very sound advice:
1) Make sure your chainline (chain ring and cog) are aligned perfectly 2) Make sure your chain is not too tight
You're using a non-ramped chainring and cog right? So that takes care of those variables right there. Frame flex shouldn't be an issue , but what square taper BB are you running?
would be nice if I could take a look at your setup. But from what I recall, it looked like a solid (bling) build spec!
If your frame does have a crack, don't worry, we'll take a look at it and do our best to help you.
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 0:17:48 GMT 8
Post by bleachstreak on May 26, 2008 0:17:48 GMT 8
hehe the crack thing was all a joke... i guess.. i hope hehehe... yup i want to drop by ur clinic sometime to have my baby checked nga eh hehehe... i bought an ordinary shimano sealed bearing square taper BB sa paulinas.. i forgot the size eh.... would the BB size matter? thanks agu!
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 6:55:08 GMT 8
Post by flipnidaho on May 26, 2008 6:55:08 GMT 8
hehe the crack thing was all a joke... i guess.. i hope hehehe... yup i want to drop by ur clinic sometime to have my baby checked nga eh hehehe... i bought an ordinary shimano sealed bearing square taper BB sa paulinas.. i forgot the size eh.... would the BB size matter? thanks agu! The spindle width would matter as the width directly affects your chainline. Also, double check that your chain tugs are against the sliders (if it's loose, your sliders may shift forward when putting pressure on the pedals which will cause some slackness which can cause the chain to jump from the chainring or cog). While you're at it, make sure your sliders are not slipping...
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 8:03:11 GMT 8
Post by cobym on May 26, 2008 8:03:11 GMT 8
While you're at it, also check if your qr skewer is loose. I had some problems with a ti skewer slipping, which was causing the axle to move forward and derailing the chain. I suggest a steel qr torqued down quite tight.
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 9:20:44 GMT 8
Post by Alphabolt on May 26, 2008 9:20:44 GMT 8
While you're at it, also check if your qr skewer is loose. I had some problems with a ti skewer slipping, which was causing the axle to move forward and derailing the chain. I suggest a steel qr torqued down quite tight. Nice tip , Coby! May I add that if our SSbro is the type who wants to rip and do jumps and drops on his SS..a dual-roller chaintensioner is the most reliable setup [my mech's advice] otherwise, chainline alignment and chaintension via half link is in order...as posted by my other SSbros here
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 9:54:55 GMT 8
Post by bleachstreak on May 26, 2008 9:54:55 GMT 8
thankss for the tipss ss brotherss... id be checking these itemss when i get the bike later... '
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bobby
Free Rider
Posts: 269
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 10:06:27 GMT 8
Post by bobby on May 26, 2008 10:06:27 GMT 8
what more can i add? it seems that everything had been taken cared of by the SingleSpeed brothers. but i pressume something is a bit loose in that set-up of yours we just can't pinpoint, for me i have to see it or ride it, there's really a lot of things that it could arise from. the last thing to consider is, frame flexing , unless you really bomb the uphills, the drive side tends to flex more. just like Gary's frame, it broke from the drive side.
i read from a topic about frame flexing on the drive side but i can't remember where, it tackled chainstay flex etc. it think it was surly who wrote something about it i'm really not sure. but it made me realise that we can really flex those frames.
p.s. nice bike.
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 11:51:17 GMT 8
Post by hyperion on May 26, 2008 11:51:17 GMT 8
hyperion would a slackier chainbe better on this situation? well i believe i need to start off with a well aligned cog:chainring... i do see the point on stressing the chains on climbs but wouldnt be a slackier chain be more prone on being derailed? Too slack is bad for climbs but a little slack is OK and ideal. However, too tight is worse than either because the chain will be stretched prematurely and will definitely break at some point. It might even snap off a chain ring tooth or two! In fact you should inspect your chain ring now for any possible damage. My SS chain setup is always a little slack or sometimes even on the verge of being too slack but it never derails, not even on pedal mashing climbs or rough landings off the curb. I have a soulcraft convert chain tensioner though, and when the tension it is set tight - it is harder to pedal and it is very noisy because of the friction between the chain and the tensioner's roller.
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 12:12:25 GMT 8
Post by hyperion on May 26, 2008 12:12:25 GMT 8
May I add that if our SSbro is the type who wants to rip and do jumps and drops on his SS..a dual-roller chaintensioner is the most reliable setup [my mech's advice] Not true Padi. My first tensioner was a da bomb dual roller and it did not last even a day! The pin that locks the tensioner to the derailleur hanger broke when somebody test rode the bike and dropped it with little finesse. Besides, the single polyurethane roller type tensioner (relic / da bomb also) that replaced it felt much better, smoother and much less noisier - on the other hand the roller got lost within 3 months hehehe. Da bomb tensioners are definitely NOT for rough use unlike their other parts.
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 16:02:33 GMT 8
Post by cobym on May 26, 2008 16:02:33 GMT 8
Nice info on tensioners, guys. But I think our friend has a Voodoo frame with sliding dropouts, hence, no tensioners needed. Personally, I did not detect any flex in my own Voodoo from the drive side from SS pedal mashing, even the most my 180 lb. body can dish out (i.e. stalled steep climbs). The chain problems are most probably caused by chain line or a slipping dropout or qr. As for my own Voodoo experience, I initially attributed the slippage to the dropouts (as it was a common issue documented in mtbr.com). Thus, I scraped off the paint on the dropouts, added a locknut to the tension adjuster, put locktite and changed the spacers to washers. 3 hours later, the thing still slipped. Later, I discovered that the slippage was mostly due to a loose or flexy qr. On a whim I changed my qr from ti to a steel qr and the slipping stopped. I changed back to a ti qr and the slipping returned. The cheap steel shimano qr is back on and i have not had any problems. The problem is usually simpler than you think. As the adage goes, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 17:14:23 GMT 8
Post by 32by18 on May 26, 2008 17:14:23 GMT 8
Thanks for the tip, Coby! "Occam's Razor"
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 20:36:32 GMT 8
Post by Alphabolt on May 26, 2008 20:36:32 GMT 8
Nice info on tensioners, guys. But I think our friend has a Voodoo frame with sliding dropouts, hence, no tensioners needed. Personally, I did not detect any flex in my own Voodoo from the drive side from SS pedal mashing, even the most my 180 lb. body can dish out (i.e. stalled steep climbs). The chain problems are most probably caused by chain line or a slipping dropout or qr. As for my own Voodoo experience, I initially attributed the slippage to the dropouts (as it was a common issue documented in mtbr.com). Thus, I scraped off the paint on the dropouts, added a locknut to the tension adjuster, put locktite and changed the spacers to washers. 3 hours later, the thing still slipped. Later, I discovered that the slippage was mostly due to a loose or flexy qr. On a whim I changed my qr from ti to a steel qr and the slipping stopped. I changed back to a ti qr and the slipping returned. The cheap steel shimano qr is back on and i have not had any problems. The problem is usually simpler than you think. As the adage goes, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. heheh I struck out on this one...yeah sliders nga pala voodoo SS frames. my bad ;D thanks Coby! OT: lets ride to baguio brad!
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 20:50:10 GMT 8
Post by cherrybomber on May 26, 2008 20:50:10 GMT 8
my guess is the chainline too. you can measure it best with a plumb line
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helpSS
May 26, 2008 20:56:14 GMT 8
Post by bleachstreak on May 26, 2008 20:56:14 GMT 8
WOW! thanks for all the answers! I did check my chainline just now and it does show that the alignment is pretty ok.. I want to try out the skewer thing.... I remember Agu advising me when i first consulted this problem after our ride and he mentioned these items as what Coby emphasized.. I haven't done the putting of locktite but I did asked my mech in alterra to scrape off a portion of the dropout to minimize slippage... after another ride the chains still got derailed... for now i am left with finding another skewer for my frame.. i remember i still have that sette skewers lying around here and i will try this out.. hopefully this problem wont happen again on my next ride... by the way.. lets have an SS ride peeps so I can meet the pros and have my bike checked personally by pros.. so far master agu is the only guru who had the chance to see the bike and gave his suggestions right there and then... thanks so much guys! =)
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helpSS
May 27, 2008 0:33:30 GMT 8
Post by dirtyjane on May 27, 2008 0:33:30 GMT 8
your welcome brad. try to look for a skewer without the lever(the quick release thingy), this one uses a 5mm allen wrench to tighten the skewer. sorry, i don't know what's it called but i used this type of skewer on my bomber before cause the skewer kept slipping. it solved my problem.=)
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helpSS
May 27, 2008 11:43:59 GMT 8
Post by 32by18 on May 27, 2008 11:43:59 GMT 8
That's another good suggestion from Dirtyjane...however, do be careful when torquing down on the bolt - I snapped the axle when I was assembling my bike before a ride! Good thing I was able to borrow a spare Shimano QR hehe.
JB - is your wheel perfectly aligned on the frame? If it's a bit off-center that may also be the culprit. Make sure the sliders are perfectly aligned...takes a bit of trial and error:
1) loosen slider bolts (just enough for the dropouts to move) 2) use drive-side set-screw to achieve the desired chain tension 3) adjust opposite set screw and observe if the wheel spins without a wobble (keep your eye on the rim, not the tire) 4) remove wheel and double check if dropouts are aligned. Adjust accordingly.
My weekends are packed with work-related matters at the moment. It would be great if we can check your bike out and resolve this mystery...
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helpSS
May 27, 2008 11:51:38 GMT 8
Post by 32by18 on May 27, 2008 11:51:38 GMT 8
JB, a few other questions...
Does the chain derail to the inside, or outside of the chainring? or does it derail at the cog?
SS-specific chain? BMX chain? Multi-speed chain?
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helpSS
May 27, 2008 22:34:58 GMT 8
Post by baboinsky on May 27, 2008 22:34:58 GMT 8
JB, a few other questions... Does the chain derail to the inside, or outside of the chainring? or does it derail at the cog? SS-specific chain? BMX chain? Multi-speed chain? I'll answer for Jeibi ;d The chain derails inside of the cog. He has a KMC SS chain installed. It think this is a case of user error. ;d Joke lang Jeibi.
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helpSS
May 27, 2008 22:59:50 GMT 8
Post by bleachstreak on May 27, 2008 22:59:50 GMT 8
mweheheheh noob error it is... i decided to ride down the metro and was caught up by a pretty nasty rain... i was drenched and decided to "tambay" at alterra and set my hopes high na bukas pa.. luckily i was there around 7++PM so I got to see Mighty Dandan and asked him if he can take a look at the bike... after a few kalikot he saw the hub's axle was pretty loose which, as agu assumed, made the wheels to wobble a bit.... he took off the entire wheelset and made opera on the poor hub... tighten some bolts and voila! the bike looks better... well i have to ride it on the trail and take that same route where the derailing of the chain happened (twice on the same spot!)... hopefully mighty dandan's touch fixes this problem.. thanks gurus! pa! di mo kse ko tinuturuan eh! mwehehehe ride na tayo sa weekend!
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