enteng
Bike Commuter
Posts: 52
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Post by enteng on Aug 14, 2007 12:33:07 GMT 8
first things first if you do have a gun thats the last sort of defense you would do in any circumstances and never ever point your gun to anyone unless you'll shoot him and last but not least Under all circumstances the pistol must be treated as if it is loaded . thats what they told me a month ago on my gun safety seminar am i right? just bring water gun loaded wiht pepper sauce inside, hapdi sa mata nun! ;D ;D
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Post by Ben Dover on Aug 14, 2007 12:51:07 GMT 8
i believe its true...but just like what savers said, its the proper placement of shot thats more important...a man in bulacan took his own life using an air rifle (used his toe to pull the trigger)... a 22 cal pellet in the heart killed the guy almost instantly. an american presidential candidate was assassinated with a 22 pistol.
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Post by radical1962 on Aug 14, 2007 14:39:44 GMT 8
if i may just add to the discussion. and with due respect to any muslim brothers on board. i've read somewhere that the 45 cal handgun was invented by the americans to provide better defense for the moro huramentados ("one-shot-kill concept'?)which were giving them a hardtime during their occupation of mindanao sometime during the early 1900's was that true? It's true. Actually, the americans were initially armed with .38 Specials Revolvers and they soon found out that it was not enough to stop a "huramentado's" attack. They were actually killing them but not stopping them in their tracks. In a matter of speaking the huramentados where already dead but they didn't know it yet... gave them time to actually cut off the heads of the american shooter before dying. What they needed was a man-stopper. The .45 was a heavy SOB of a cartridge. It did not penetrate because of its lower velocity but it did put the hurumentado DOWN because of it's WEIGHT. Not particularly dead but definitely DOWN! In other words, once you get hit by a 45 you'd think you're already dead... This is actually the same argument with 9mm vs. the .40... but that's another story altogether.
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Post by nell7806 on Aug 14, 2007 14:42:48 GMT 8
@ sir arci, thats the so called history of the 1911 model...
@ sir lamok same here sir am no gun expert but I'm the kind of person who always try to know my capacity either with my equipment... on and off the firing range we we taught on proper gun handling... using sub-machines are different if you were to shoot with handhelp pistols...
like what sir Savers have said... when u say just to immobilize you might aim maybe for the non-fatal part mostly avoiding mostly the head and heart...
for untrained people like us, under a very stressful situation, we'll be lucky to hit a moving target the size of a carabao in few yards distance... and thats what I'm saying using such weapons on a situation is a matter that will determine your capacaity... and in firing, it's imposible that you wont hit a ceratin target who's just lets say 10 meters??? when your handling a piece that you have own for such a time... and for a 13rounder CZ-100 that I used to have I won't hesitate to not fire but bang them if at arms lenght....
@ sir glockbiker I don't under estimate the killing capacity/capabalityof any gun... but in reality it is indeed used by the US lespu for such reasons of avoiding killing a certain criminal...like a shot on the leg etc.
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Post by radical1962 on Aug 14, 2007 14:49:31 GMT 8
i believe its true...but just like what savers said, its the proper placement of shot thats more important...a man in bulacan took his own life using an air rifle (used his toe to pull the trigger)... a 22 cal pellet in the heart killed the guy almost instantly. an american presidential candidate was assassinated with a 22 pistol. I agree. Accuracy of shot placement is really important. I've seen hunters kill wild boar with 22s shooting through the heart or eye into the brain. I actually like shooting the more accurate .22 than my 9mm. It's not all about the size, it seems that the smaller calibers and less powerful rounds are more accurate. In fact, I have a .177 Feinwerkebau ISU Airpistol used for the olympics that can shoot the head of a matchstick all day long (depende na lang sa shooter kung kaya nya). If you look at the Olympic 10-meter bulleye of the airpistol, it's actually smaller than the pellet. And they are already shooting close to perfect scores of 600 in the Olympics. Me? My records is 545 for 60 shots. The 9mm, I'm lucky if I can get my Glock 26 to group 3" at 25 yards.
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Post by nell7806 on Aug 14, 2007 15:11:26 GMT 8
first things first if you do have a gun thats the last sort of defense you would do in any circumstances and never ever point your gun to anyone unless you'll shoot him and last but not least Under all circumstances the pistol must be treated as if it is loaded . thats what they told me a month ago on my gun safety seminar am i right? just bring water gun loaded wiht pepper sauce inside, hapdi sa mata nun! ;D ;D hehehe... home made pepper spray gun...
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Post by Ben Dover on Aug 14, 2007 17:21:11 GMT 8
okay, all i'm trying to say here is this..when you are in a situation requiring you to draw your weapon, as they say in an article tactical/combat mindset, "he who makes the correct decisions the quickest will be the most likely to walk away. the difficult moral and ethical decision that you will run into should have been determined (by yourself) before you ever started carrying your weapon on your person" sa madaling salita desedido ka na...you dont have to make a decision anymore since you already made it long before it actually happened..thats the fastest. sir, i dont believe choosing where to shoot a person is practical against a determined assailant..i mean with the purpose of "just immobilizing"and not to kill...this wud prolly sound violent and un-christian but if you ask me, actually this is the advice i repeatedly give to my wife whenever i have to go away for an extended period of time..if ever you decide to pick up this gun..dont hesitate..aim at the chest (center of the mass)..dont look the person in the eyes...pull the trigger as fast as you can until the threat stops..period...forget about legal ek ek..we can always talk about it later. .
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Post by allegra on Aug 14, 2007 21:24:55 GMT 8
Guys, if anyone of you manages to shoot someone , please let me interview you, i'm doing some case studies for a project of mine
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rednose
XC Rider
sometimes you need a nice cup of it...
Posts: 105
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Post by rednose on Aug 14, 2007 23:36:14 GMT 8
hearts and minds two on the chest, one in the head -anonymous
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Post by anshwa on Aug 15, 2007 0:18:13 GMT 8
The discussion got interesting. My 2 cents.
Trying to neutralize an attacker by shooting them at their limbs is almost a myth - the stuff of movies unless you're a really exceptional shot. Lamok is right, you aim big. The moment you draw your firearm the decision making is done. You shoot to kill, period.
You don't only kill a person by hitting them in the heart or the head. There are so many vital points on a human being. For instance, trying to hit an attacker on the leg, you could hit a little high & you may get the femoral artery. On the belly, you may hit a kidney or the liver. You aim at the arm, you may hit a lung.
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Post by nell7806 on Aug 15, 2007 1:41:06 GMT 8
well still if you hit someone and your intension is not killing him you simply shoot him in a less fatal part... if you hit a major artery its no longer your problem... at least in an investigation you could state or even argue that ur trying to stop him by immobilizing by such way... if you aim for the heart or head... mostly at pointblank for sure its a guranteed kill... you may end up with murder for that...(i guess)
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Post by anshwa on Aug 15, 2007 3:44:31 GMT 8
Nell7806, with all due respect, as you have mentioned in your post above, we would have to be lucky to hit a moving target. To aim for running legs or moving arms instead of the body is just not realistic. And I didn't say aim for the heart or head - that would be the same as aiming for the legs. I said aim big (aim for the biggest area) & know that there is a high percentage that you would be killing another human being.
On the matter of intention of not killing him. A person who dies from a gunshot wound, dies from a gunshot wound. To say you did not intend to kill him when you shot him, & that the shot to the artery was accidental, doesn't sound convincing - in my opinion.
You draw your weapon during a life & death situation - nothing less. And if that is the case, know that you are about to kill another human being in doing so.
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Post by nell7806 on Aug 15, 2007 9:09:14 GMT 8
Nell7806, with all due respect, as you have mentioned in your post above, we would have to be lucky to hit a moving target. To aim for running legs or moving arms instead of the body is just not realistic. And I didn't say aim for the heart or head - that would be the same as aiming for the legs. I said aim big (aim for the biggest area) & know that there is a high percentage that you would be killing another human being. On the matter of intention of not killing him. A person who dies from a gunshot wound, dies from a gunshot wound. To say you did not intend to kill him when you shot him, & that the shot to the artery was accidental, doesn't sound convincing - in my opinion. You draw your weapon during a life & death situation - nothing less. And if that is the case, know that you are about to kill another human being in doing so. its really hard to put a bullet into a moving target, thats why people try to shoot at targets on and off the firing range, the gun you would use is the same gun that you practice with, another thing ur using a multi round, mag fed piece like those 13rounders. if you miss try again, using all the rounds and missing your target on that situation, for a few yards...I think theres something wrong with the pistol or the guy using it, either the fact that it's your own gun and you know it's effective range, why shoot at a distance which is beyond capacity. and another thing sir, the night that I was intentionally hit by those bums, there are only 4 people present at the same place, myself and my three (i don't know if they where high on something) almost killers who's inside a highly tinted van not known to be armed or not... what will you do... my decision is to shoot the tires first, after that wait for them to come out, and if they are still hostile i'll hit them on the legs and if confirmed armed, I woulnd't hesitate to save my own life... by the as soon as they puled over and check on me I'm already hiding at the side of the road less than 15meters away from where they stop (thanks to my minds presence), where I can see/view a clear silhouette of the van and that of who might come out of it... just plain common sense that they're already a group of three and coming out armed don't mean a friendly gesture... I just want to ask sirs... when you pull your gun, do you always intend to kill??? or maybe preserve your very own life and not necesarily kill intentively... in case you'll shoot at somebody, can't you just hit him to make him unable to fight back??? there are so many situations that pops up into our mind... it's a good thing we share our opinions which may be a hint to others... all I can say... we don't step on each and every stone which are laid already in our path, we only choose the stone which is able to be stteped on... as like our bikes, we can steer it from the left and right...
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Post by arcireyes on Aug 15, 2007 9:44:24 GMT 8
talking about guns and shooting guns. anybody here experienced having a cocked gun (in my case a cal. 45 pistol)aimed at his face. i did when i was just 17 years old (i'll tell a detailed story when we trailride okay ). with that life and death experience, i looked the person straight in the eyes and after coming out of that experience alive, i'll tell you it's in the EYES........on whether he/she will pull the trigger or not.
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savers
All-Mountain Rider
Posts: 163
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Post by savers on Aug 15, 2007 9:55:54 GMT 8
when you possess a firearm, you should be knowledgeable enough on how to shoot. be sure that when carry your weapon outside of your residence(provided that you 've been approved by the chief,PNP). you should be equip yourself with 1. knew how to shoot with accuracy 2. knew when to shoot 3.knowledgeable on rule of self defense 4.knew the rules of engagement
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Post by nell7806 on Aug 15, 2007 9:57:26 GMT 8
sir arci... can you share it at lugawan instead??? I can't join threverse palace trip... I'm too weak for that...
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Post by arcireyes on Aug 15, 2007 10:02:03 GMT 8
strengthen yourself nell, i'll only share the story on the last part of the next 2008 JULY TRILOGY hahaha sorry for OT
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Post by Ben Dover on Aug 15, 2007 10:11:07 GMT 8
sir savers, could you please post the rules of engagement for lespu here for our knowledge...is there such a thing as rules of engagement for civilians i.e. ordinary people? the only rule that i know is "the right to use force in self-defense". i'm thinking, would it be nice to analyze the case of sonny parsons here?
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Post by nell7806 on Aug 15, 2007 10:22:16 GMT 8
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa................. what if i failed to strenghten myself.... but wait... I know the secret... I think I'll use it...
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Post by allegra on Aug 15, 2007 11:04:38 GMT 8
Nell7806, with all due respect, as you have mentioned in your post above, we would have to be lucky to hit a moving target. To aim for running legs or moving arms instead of the body is just not realistic. And I didn't say aim for the heart or head - that would be the same as aiming for the legs. I said aim big (aim for the biggest area) & know that there is a high percentage that you would be killing another human being. On the matter of intention of not killing him. A person who dies from a gunshot wound, dies from a gunshot wound. To say you did not intend to kill him when you shot him, & that the shot to the artery was accidental, doesn't sound convincing - in my opinion. You draw your weapon during a life & death situation - nothing less. And if that is the case, know that you are about to kill another human being in doing so. its really hard to put a bullet into a moving target, thats why people try to shoot at targets on and off the firing range, the gun you would use is the same gun that you practice with, another thing ur using a multi round, mag fed piece like those 13rounders. if you miss try again, using all the rounds and missing your target on that situation, for a few yards...I think theres something wrong with the pistol or the guy using it, either the fact that it's your own gun and you know it's effective range, why shoot at a distance which is beyond capacity. and another thing sir, the night that I was intentionally hit by those bums, there are only 4 people present at the same place, myself and my three (i don't know if they where high on something) almost killers who's inside a highly tinted van not known to be armed or not... what will you do... my decision is to shoot the tires first, after that wait for them to come out, and if they are still hostile i'll hit them on the legs and if confirmed armed, I woulnd't hesitate to save my own life... by the as soon as they puled over and check on me I'm already hiding at the side of the road less than 15meters away from where they stop (thanks to my minds presence), where I can see/view a clear silhouette of the van and that of who might come out of it... just plain common sense that they're already a group of three and coming out armed don't mean a friendly gesture... I just want to ask sirs... when you pull your gun, do you always intend to kill??? or maybe preserve your very own life and not necesarily kill intentively... in case you'll shoot at somebody, can't you just hit him to make him unable to fight back??? there are so many situations that pops up into our mind... it's a good thing we share our opinions which may be a hint to others... all I can say... we don't step on each and every stone which are laid already in our path, we only choose the stone which is able to be stteped on... as like our bikes, we can steer it from the left and right... hehe I would think that if I had to shoot someone , yes Its because I want him to die I always thought that was obvious If I wanted to disable him , I'd use a baseball bat When you shoot people to disable , thay have a nasty habit of not cooperating w/ your plans If someoen draws a weapon on me w/ the intent of harming me , why would I shoot to disable? If I'm not sure of his intentions , then why am I shooting him? Dont make the mistake of trying to scare him w/ a gun kahit may warning shots , coz I know people who will take it from your hands and shove it somewhere where the sun dont shine ( now that I hope never happens to me haha ) OTOH , if you feel masyado kayo na dehado , why not go ahead and shoot him hehe it will make you feel better , especially if you have money to burn
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Post by glockbiker on Aug 15, 2007 11:25:36 GMT 8
arcireyesI haven't experienced somebody pointing a gun at my face but I have experienced pointing a fully loaded Garand rifle at my UP ROTC mates at the Sunken Garden. It was our last day of training and we were all horsing around before dismissal. I loaded a full 8-round clip in my Garand, slammed the bolt home and pointed it in their direction. I can still remember the terrified look in their faces. And that was what knocked me back to my senses! For a while there, I could have killed or maimed somebody because of that stupid stunt. It really cemented my respect for life! It didn't diminish my liking for guns, but I have valued safe gun handling eversince. nell7806Do you have to fire your gun once you draw it? Personally, I don't think so. A lot of Pinoys get into serious trouble with the law because of the saying that goes: "PAG BINUNOT MO, IPUTOK MO!". It appeals to their pa-macho mentality kasi. I think its a faulty translation of an old statement that says: "IF YOU DRAW YOUR FIREARM, BE PREPARED TO USE IT." I remember a fellow who got into a traffic altercation with a jeepney driver. The driver got out and charged at him with a lead pipe. This guy got of his car, drew his snubbie and aimed. Seeing the gun, the driver immediately halted and ran back to his jeep and sped away. Had the driver continued his charge, I know the guy would have shot him cold. But since the perp ran away, the threat disappeared and the guy with the gun no longer had the reason to shoot even if his gun was drawn. Gun owners must train themselves to spot danger and assess the level of threat. If the threat is not imminent or grave, the gun must be used as an instrument for THREAT CONTROL or PERSUASION. Thats why news videos often show US lespu officers with guns drawn but shouting repeat warnings to perps. They have been drilled to react that way. Even if the perp goes wild, they often choose to tackle him or zap him with Tazers. Ewan ko lang dito sa Pinas. Ha-ha-ha.
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Post by anshwa on Aug 15, 2007 11:52:11 GMT 8
I think the problem with discussing firing or not firing your weapon is when we start using examples of scenarios. Scenarios tend to present ideal situations which are biased to the person's opinion.
My point in my posts above were of the mindset one should have the moment he draws his firearm because of a threat. Savers put it very well using his 4 points above. In other words, before you even decided to draw your weapon, you should have already assessed the situation. Whether you draw it to shoot or draw it to "threaten" an attacker, the mindset should still be the same. To actually think that when you fire your gun you could just temporarily neutralize an attacker is a very dangerous attitude both for the attacker & the safety of the defender (I don't want to say victim as I believe that is the wrong mindset for one being attacked). Allegra made a really important point by saying attackers who are shot to be disabled have a tendency to not stop. We should keep this in mind.
I've witnessed two men stabbing each other continously like they were just punching each other. Take that same adrenaline & place it in an attacker armed with a bolo or a gun running towards you & you already know you have to take him out.
But to draw your weapon just because some @sshole took your parking space & even scratched your car is just plain s#upid.
Great points from everyone, though.
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Post by Ben Dover on Aug 15, 2007 12:13:41 GMT 8
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Post by nell7806 on Aug 15, 2007 12:41:39 GMT 8
@ sir anshwa and sir glockbiker... thats right sirs... on my case, being a youngster who was taught to shoot an empty can and either being taught of the dangers that it might bring... my uncles, older cousins, and even my father spoon fed of things regarding even on the simplest of owning a piece... the responsibility that comes along in having such... are still my guide... either the fact saving a life is better than taking one... if I may borrow some words from sir glockbiker... Do you have to fire your gun once you draw it? Personally, I don't think so.
"A lot of Pinoys get into serious trouble with the law because of the saying that goes: "PAG BINUNOT MO, IPUTOK MO!". It appeals to their pa-macho mentality kasi." indeed this is what others speak out...
but this is far more better and civilized... ""IF YOU DRAW YOUR FIREARM, BE PREPARED TO USE IT."" again as per sir glockbiker...
@ sir answa "To actually think that when you fire your gun you could just temporarily neutralize an attacker is a very dangerous attitude both for the attacker & the safety of the defender (I don't want to say victim as I believe that is the wrong mindset for one being attacked). Allegra made a really important point by saying attackers who are shot to be disabled have a tendency to not stop. We should keep this in mind. " surely this is a great thing sir... thats if only u could neutralize the attacker, but if you fail poping another could be the thing.
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Post by glockbiker on Aug 15, 2007 15:01:59 GMT 8
nell7806If your dilemna is what mentality to have when you do decide to fire your gun, shooting schools teach that you must shoot to kill since that is the only way to guarantee full neutralization of your attacker. As they say "They'll stop when they're dead." Shooting to kill, especially from a fast draw is largely dictated by practicality and not by anger per se. Combat instructors will tell you to shoot the torso becoz it is the largest part of the human body and therefore offers the highest probabilty for a hit. (That rules out shooting the legs just to wound.) And since it houses many vital organs, even a single shot has a good chance of causing multiple organ damage- leading to a hasty trip to the funeraria. Ang morbid na ng usapan 'no? Sige, kung yung bike lang gusto, ibigay mo na lang tapos sigaw ka ng "Puliiis! Puliiis! Puliiiiiiis!"
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Post by allegra on Aug 15, 2007 19:45:44 GMT 8
hehe just clarify ulit the phrase "pag binunot mo , iputok mo" is used by the matatanda here in the province as practical advice on how they reached old age It means, if you have reason to point your gun at someone , you have to kill him , because he will never forget , and in their terms, "pagpupuyatan ka nyan " But It's such a macho sounding phrase isnt it I agree w/ its orig intent I'm not a very smart guy , madali ako malito I dont want to spend time debating if it's a shoot or no shoot situation If I am threatened w/ bodily harm and there are no means to escape , dehins nako mag iisip I will present my pistol w/ the intent of shooting well thats assumning I'm carrying hehe w/c I hate coz I'm too lazy It's sounds mayabang pakinggan but you have to consider before it even reaches that situation , I will be doing my best to deescalate using my irresistable charm
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Post by Ben Dover on Aug 15, 2007 20:28:36 GMT 8
oh now its clear to me..since i hear them more often from pete and bruce, i thought the phrase "pag binunot mo, iputok mo" was a sort of family planning method.
now i must agree though...its a straight forward instruction...easy to remember...uncomplicated, plain and simple...cant dismiss the wisdom of our old folks.
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Post by Alphabolt on Aug 15, 2007 23:40:42 GMT 8
I've witnessed two men stabbing each other continously like they were just punching each other. Take that same adrenaline & place it in an attacker armed with a bolo or a gun running towards you & you already know you have to take him out. Tell us more about what you witnessed, brad? goons with knives scare the sh2#$t outta me I 'd shoot them without firing warning shots if they dont stop and run away
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Post by anshwa on Aug 16, 2007 0:24:15 GMT 8
Alphabolt, it was in Monumento years ago. Just got off the bus & was walking towards Ever to wait for a jeepney to go home (Navotas). As I neared the place where people wait for jeepneys, I noticed two guys just winging at each other with knives. I'm so used to the sight of violence that I just calmly walked the other way & even told 2 med or nursing students to go the other way as two people were killing each other where they were walking to. I saw at least 5 stabs thrown by each guy & they were still going at it as I was turning away.
Another time, as I got off the jeepney near my home, a man w/ a bolo was running after another who had a belt. The bolo guy caught up with him & started grabbing & hacking. The belt guy was trying to hit the other w/ the belt but it didn't work. He ended up trying to block the hacks w/ his arms. Scary s#it.
'Ey, a guy comes at me w/ a bolo like that, I'm pulling the trigger.
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Post by allegra on Aug 16, 2007 0:26:53 GMT 8
I've witnessed two men stabbing each other continously like they were just punching each other. Take that same adrenaline & place it in an attacker armed with a bolo or a gun running towards you & you already know you have to take him out. Tell us more about what you witnessed, brad? goons with knives scare the sh2#$t outta me I 'd shoot them without firing warning shots if they dont stop and run away There's no polite way to say it brad , but if you get into an altercation w/ errr.....shall we say the cd crowd , you better be armed and yu better watch his hands and dont let him get close, sigurado my hawak na tusok
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